05 October 1998
(NSC Adviser says terrorism is a worldwide phenomenon) (3340) Washington -- Samuel "Sandy" Berger, National Security Adviser to President Clinton, says the international community must join together to fight terrorism because "Terrorism is a worldwide phenomenon; it is not simply an American problem ... whether one is in Colombia, South America or Algeria, or in parts of Asia or in Russia, or in the subway station in Tokyo where sarin gas was placed and many were killed." In a USIA Worldnet "Global Exchange" program September 25, Berger defined terrorism as "the act of killing or maiming innocent civilians in the name of some higher political or religious or other purpose. ..." He said that while there is no justification for killing innocent people, as President Clinton said in his speech before the United Nations General Assembly, "... we also have to understand the conditions which tend to breed discontent, anger, hatred, and try to deal with those conditions as well." "But I think it's important for all of us -- in the Arab world and in the West -- to not confuse legitimate grievances and legitimate protests with killing of innocent people," he asserted. Berger stressed that the United States has great respect for the Islamic world and this, he said, was one of the most important messages from the president's speech at the U.N. General Assembly. "I do not believe that the Arab people support terrorism. I do not believe that Islam justifies terrorism ... I don't believe that most Arabs believe that killing innocent people is a justifiable act. "I think it's very important that we try to tear down the stereotypes that we have of each other -- the stereotypes in the United States that often don't see the rich diversity and the great culture and the great richness of the Arab world, and the stereotypes often in the Arab world that sees America in one dimension, rather than as a very diverse country that seeks the same goals and aspirations as the people of the Arab world do." Berger defended the U.S. strikes against Afghanistan and Sudan following the terrorist bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, saying, "We did what any nation has a right to do under the circumstances, which is to strike back in self-defense. We have every reason to believe that other attacks were planned." On the Middle East Peace Process, Berger said "... the solution to this is not a series of unilateral steps that could lead to war, and by which no one would benefit; but rather a negotiated resolution. Under the Oslo accords ... it is for the parties in final status negotiations, which we hope we can begin soon, to resolve the status of the territories. And I think it would be far preferable to decide that by a negotiated solution rather than by unilateral steps on both sides, which can only lead to bloodshed and confrontation." Regarding relations with Iran, he noted that "we have said for some time that we would like to have an official open dialogue with the government of Iran ... to deal with all of the issues between our two countries." Following is the transcript of the Worldnet program: (Begin transcript) MS. RASSAN: Hi, I'm Shameem Rassan, welcome to "Global Exchange." On Monday, at the opening session of the United Nations General Assembly, U.S. President Bill Clinton made an overture towards Muslim nations saying terrorism is a global problem, and inviting the Islamic states to join the West in opposing terrorism. The president described terrorism as a clear and present danger to tolerant and open societies and innocent people everywhere, and called for international cooperation in fighting terrorism worldwide. Joining me from the White House, to discuss the president's speech and the threat terrorism poses on nations around the world, is Sandy Berger, President Clinton's National Security Adviser. Mr. Berger, we would like to -- it's a great honor to welcome you on "Global Exchange." MR. BERGER: Well, it's a great privilege for me to be here and to have an opportunity to visit with you and with your audience. MS. RASSAN: Thank you. Mr. Berger, since the embassy bombings in Africa, several suspects have been taken into custody in a number of different countries. Now, is this a sign that international cooperation against terrorism is improving? MR. BERGER: I think there has been very, very good cooperation in this investigation of the perpetrators of the bombing that killed 12 Americans and about 250 Kenyans and Tanzanians in Africa in August. We've had extraordinary cooperation from the government of Kenya, the government of Tanzania, and governments around the world in trying to apprehend this network of terrorists. MS. RASSAN: Mr. Berger, in Monday's speech the president stressed about the current respect the West has for Islam, and that the values of Islam -- the Western civilization does go with the values of Islamic countries. Now, meanwhile, how can we get this message clearly to the Islamic countries? MR. BERGER: Well, one of the very -- one of the most important messages from the president's speech at the United Nations General Assembly was precisely that, which is the great respect with which the United States of America and this government feels towards the Islamic world. I think it's significant that the president chose that message as one of the central messages of his annual speech to the international community. Islam is one of the world's great universal religions. Its values are values that are admirable and should be respected. There is a growing community of Muslims here in the United States -- about six million -- who are devout and practicing Muslims. And I think it's very important that we don't stereotype people, and that we have a dialogue among cultures rather than trying to caricature one another. MS. RASSAN: Thank you, Mr. Berger. Joining us for today's special edition of "Global Exchange" is the Middle East Broadcasting Center in London. At this point we would like to welcome MBC's Tawfiq Gazalied (sp) to our discussion. Welcome, Tawfiq. Q: Mr. Berger, I am very pleased to be able to talk with you about terrorism, particularly since Islamic and Arab public opinion is very much interested in that subject. At first I would like to ask you a question which might seem self-evident. What is your definition of the phenomenon of terrorism in Washington? MR. BERGER: Well, I think it's a very good question. I think terrorism is the act of killing or maiming innocent civilians in the name of some higher political or religious or other purpose. I think when -- whether it's in Northern Ireland where a bomb recently killed Protestants and Catholics alike, whether it's in Nairobi where 250 Muslims died along with 12 Americans -- these were innocent people doing their jobs. They were not combatants, they were not at war. They were seeking to build a better life for themselves. And I think targeting civilians, targeting innocent people for ostensibly political purposes is my definition of terrorism. Q: Mr. Berger, in Washington you realize quite well that most terrorist operations in the world are targeting American interests and American institutions and American citizens. Aren't you trying to find out the real reasons why this is the case? MR. BERGER: Well, first of all, I am not sure I totally agree with what you said. Terrorism really is a worldwide phenomenon, whether one is in Colombia South America or Algeria, or in parts of Asia or in Russia, or in the subway station in Tokyo where sarin gas was placed and many were killed. Terrorism is a worldwide phenomenon; it is not simply an American problem. That's one of the points the president was making in his speech -- we have to join together because this is a worldwide problem. Now, in terms of causes, let me say this: I don't think there's any justification for killing innocent people. We have to condemn terrorism and seek to defeat it, because of the nature of the act. But, as the president said in New York, we also have to understand the conditions which tend to breed discontent, anger, hatred, and try to deal with those conditions as well. And those conditions are often poverty, disenfranchisement, disaffection with governments, corruption -- a whole range of problems that give rise to discontent. But I think it's important for all of us -- in the Arab world and in the West -- to not confuse legitimate grievances and legitimate protests with killing of innocent people. Q: Mr. Berger, let me also be a little bit specific in defining terrorism in the Middle East. And it is based on Arab and Islamic public opinion there. That public opinion believes that the United States is clearly biased in favor of Israel in its struggle against -- or in its conflict against Arabs and Muslims. This bias has helped create some phenomena, including the bin Laden phenomenon. And these phenomena and these people are declaring a holy war against the United States now. Don't you believe, Mr. Berger, that reformulating American foreign policy towards Arabs and Muslims would reduce this phenomenon of terrorism? MR. BERGER: Well, first of all, we seek to have good relations with Arab countries, and we have very good relations with many Arab countries in the Middle East and elsewhere -- from Morocco and Tunisia, to Saudi Arabia, to Jordan, to the Gulf States, to Egypt and elsewhere. So, number one, we want to build good relationships with Arab countries -- Q: But I'm talking about -- Mr. Berger, excuse me for interrupting -- I am talking about the Arab and Islamic countries. MR. BERGER: I understand. Some of the countries I mentioned are both Arab and Islamic. The -- we have been, I think, from over the past several years a driving force to try to achieve peace in the Middle East, to help the Palestinian people for example achieve their legitimate aspirations. Q: But, Mr. Berger, again forgive me for interrupting -- Mr. Berger, I believe that the Arab public opinion and Islamic public opinion, and also most Arab regimes, look upon Washington as unable to avoid bloodshed by its inability and refusal to press Israel to implement the Oslo accords. MR. BERGER: Let me try -- I would really appreciate the opportunity to try to answer the questions that you've asked, the very fair questions you've asked without being interrupted. We believe very strongly that there ought to be a peace between Israel and the Palestinians. We will press very hard. We will press Israel very hard, because we do not believe there can be justice and economic development in the Middle East until there is that peace. And we will continue to work for that objective. And I believe whether it has been peace between Israel and Jordan or the peace going back years earlier between Egypt and Israel, or the Oslo agreement, the United States has been the country that has tried to bring together in peaceful reconciliation the neighbors of Israel and Israel. Q: But the recent explosions that happened at the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were considered by all the world as crimes -- terrorist crimes. But also your reply -- your response, Mr. Berger, by bombing the pharmaceutical company in Sudan, was also considered in Arab countries as a terrorist act, particularly since the U.S. administration up to this day has not been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that this plant was in fact producing dangerous chemicals, as it is claimed in Washington. MR. BERGER: I think that's wrong, in all due respect. Let me say -- let me go back -- 250 Africans and Americans were killed in Kenya in Nairobi and in Dar es Salaam by a network of which Osama bin Laden is at the center. We did what any nation has a right to do under that circumstances, which is to strike back in self-defense. We have every reason to believe that other attacks were planned. We struck in Afghanistan at some terrorist training camps, and we struck at a facility in Sudan, which we have very strong reason to believe is associated with chemical weapons. It is a plant that is part of the military industrial corporation of Sudan, which was financed in part by Osama bin Laden. There's been a very close relationship between Osama bin Laden and the government of Sudan in the development of these facilities. And we also know that Osama bin Laden seeks to gain chemical weapons. Chemical weapons are not legitimate instruments of any movement, and we did not seek to -- we have no dispute with the people of Sudan. Indeed, the government of Sudan has been brutal towards the people of Sudan. There are 1.2 million in southwestern Sudan who are starving because of a civil war. We have -- we want to provide more food aid to those people, but we are not able to get that food aid in, because the government of Sudan will not give us access, and will not give private, international non-governmental organizations access to these people. So this was not an act against the Sudanese people; it was a very specific act against a facility associated with bin Laden and associated with chemical weapons. Q: The report that was presented by the U.S. State Department last year to the U.S. Congress mentioned the Lebanese Hezbollah as one of the terrorist organizations in the world. I would like to affirm, Mr. Berger, that Hezbollah forces are -- can be found in the portion of Lebanon that is occupied by Israeli troops. I met with one of the Hezbollah officials a short time ago, and he assured me that these forces, Hezbollah forces, will continue to be present in south Lebanon until all of the Israeli troops are withdrawn from there -- MR. BERGER: Well, we certainly -- Q: -- and that they will become active politically all over Lebanon. Do you in Washington look upon those who try to defend their own land and their own territory a terrorist, in spite of the fact that Hezbollah has never undertaken any action outside the borders of Lebanon? MR. BERGER: Well, we certainly would like to see Lebanon's territorial integrity restored, and its control over all of its land restored. I think the Israeli government would like to -- has spoken recently about withdrawal from southern Lebanon, but under conditions which its security would be assured and protected. Q: With regard to the peace process, although I do not want to get bogged down with the failure of the Oslo accords, but Chairman Arafat insists on declaring a Palestinian state. On the other hand, Prime Minister Netanyahu is insisting that if such an independent state is declared he will annex the West Bank. Palestinian authorities have considered Netanyahu's statement as a declared statement of war against the Palestinians. If that should happen, what would be the position of the United States? MR. BERGER: Well, we think the solution to this is not a series of unilateral steps that could lead to war, and by which no one would benefit; but rather a negotiated resolution. Under the Oslo accords -- which I don't believe are dead, as I think you put them -- the -- it is for the parties in final status negotiations, which we hope we can begin soon, to resolve the status of the territories. And I think it would be far preferable to decide that by a negotiated solution rather than by unilateral steps on both sides, which can only lead to bloodshed and confrontation. Q: Mr. Berger, Iran until a short while ago was considered a terrorist state, a state that sponsors terrorism. But it has been announced recently that diplomatic relations between London and Tehran have been reopened. Will this open the door for also resuming diplomatic relations between Washington and Tehran? MR. BERGER: Well, we have said for some time that we would like to have an official open dialogue with the government of Iran. I think this would be very good in terms of dealing with issues that the government of Iran are concerned about, and issues that we are concerned about. So we are in favor of an open, an official dialogue with the government of Iran to deal with all of the issues between our two countries. Q: My last question to you, Mr. Berger, is that some international observers think that Washington and London's approval or agreement about the trial of the two suspects in the Pan Am explosion or bombing of the airplane, the Pan Am explosion, is giving in. But President Qadhafi is also considering refusing to turn over these two suspects. Will Washington and London offer President Qadhafi guarantees before these two suspects are put on trial? MR. BERGER: Well, let's go back and just recount the history here. After the bombing of Pan Am 103, in which several hundred people were killed, the United Nations passed a resolution, imposing some sanctions on Libya, and indicating that those sanctions would be in place until he turned over the suspects for trial by either a court -- an American court or a United Kingdom court. More recently Mr. Qadhafi has indicated that if we were to have a trial by a Scottish court in a third country that he would turn over the suspects. After our own deliberation and discussions with the British and with the Netherlands, we decided that we could do that, we could constitute a Scottish court in the Netherlands, as President Qadhafi has asked. Now, I hope he will take yes for an answer, rather than change the terms and try to get into negotiations. He made an offer in a sense. We accepted that offer, and I think now the burden is on him to turn over the suspects in the manner in which he suggested -- he sought to have them tried. Q: Mr. Berger, based upon the answers that you gave to questions on terrorism, I can tell you that there are still differences between Arab and American points of view on terrorism. Do you believe -- and how can the U.S. administration develop its relationships with all the Arab countries, given those differences in points of view about terrorism and also the differences about the peace process, and also the way Washington is dealing with some Arab regimes, such as the ones in Iraq and in Sudan? MR. BERGER: Well, I think that we need to have a greater dialogue between the United States and the Arab world. We seek to improve our relations with Arab countries and understand each other better. We will not agree on all matters. I do not believe that the Arab people support terrorism. I do not believe that Islam justifies terrorism, from everything that I have read and all of the people I have spoke to. I don't believe that most Arabs believe that killing innocent people is a justifiable act. I think it's very important that we try to tear down the stereotypes that we have of each other -- the stereotypes in the United States that often don't see the rich diversity and the great culture and the great richness of the Arab world, and the stereotypes often in the Arab world that sees America in one dimension, rather than as a very diverse country that seeks the same goals and aspirations as the people of the Arab world do. Q: Mr. Berger, thank you. MS. RASSAN: My thanks also to Mr. Sandy Berger, President Clinton's National Security Adviser, for being with us for this edition of "Global Exchange." And I would like to thank Tawfiq Gazalied (sp) from the Middle East Broadcasting Center in London for joining us. And also, I would like to remind all our viewers to join us again on "Global Exchange," on Wednesday at 1300 hours Universal Time for a new edition of "Global Exchange." In Washington, I'm Shameem Rassan. (End transcript)