DATE= OCTOBER 18, 1997 TYPE=ON THE LINE NUMBER=1-00575 TITLE=DEFUNDING INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM EDITOR=OFFICE OF POLICY - 619-0037 CONTENT= THEME: UP, HOLD UNDER AND FADE ANNCR: ON THE LINE -- A DISCUSSION OF UNITED STATES POLICIES AND CONTEMPORARY ISSUES. THIS WEEK, "DEFUNDING INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM." HERE IS YOUR HOST, ROBERT REILLY. HOST: HELLO AND WELCOME TO ON THE LINE. THE U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT HAS DESIGNATED THIRTY EXTREMIST GROUPS AS TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS. TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE FREEDOM IN AMERICA, GROUPS SUCH AS HAMAS HAVE USED FRONT ORGANIZATIONS TO RAISE MONEY IN THE UNITED STATES. LAST YEAR, CONGRESS PASSED A LAW DESIGNED TO PREVENT TERRORIST GROUPS FROM RAISING FUNDS IN THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE MADELEINE ALBRIGHT SAID, "OUR MESSAGE TO ANYONE WHO COMES INTO OUR COUNTRY TO RAISE MONEY FOR A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION IS, YOU RISK GOING TO JAIL. AND OUR MESSAGE TO ANYONE WHO IS PART OF A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION AND WHO WANTS TO ENTER THE UNITED STATES IS, YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE." JOINING ME TODAY TO DISCUSS U.S EFFORTS TO DE-FUND INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM ARE TWO EXPERTS. GORDON GREY IS DIRECTOR OF REGIONAL AFFAIRS FOR THE STATE DEPARTMENT'S OFFICE OF COUNTER-TERRORISM. AND HILLARY MANN IS AN ASSOCIATE FELLOW AT THE WASHINGTON INSTITUTE FOR NEAR EAST POLICY. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM. MR. GREY, LET ME BEGIN BY ASKING YOU WHAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HOPES TO ACCOMPLISH BY ISSUING A LIST THAT DESIGNATES THESE THIRTY GROUPS AS TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS? GREY: WELL, THERE ARE THREE MAIN LEGAL CONSEQUENCES THAT FLOW FROM THESE DESIGNATIONS. AND I WOULD LIKE TO EMPHASIZE THAT IT IS THE WHOLE U.S. GOVERNMENT THAT HAS MADE THIS DECISION. STATE DEPARTMENT WORKED VERY CLOSELY WITH THE DEPARTMENTS OF JUSTICE AND TREASURY, THE F-B-I AND WITH THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY AS WELL. THE FIRST LEGAL CONSEQUENCE IS THAT MEMBERS OR REPRESENTATIVES OF A FOREIGN TERRORIST ORGANIZATION ARE INADMISSIBLE FOR VISAS TO COME TO THE UNITED STATES. SECOND ASPECT OF THIS LAW, THE SECOND LEGAL CONSEQUENCE, IS THAT PROVIDING MATERIAL SUPPORT INCLUDING FUNDRAISING IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE. AND THE THIRD IS THAT THE TREASURY DEPARTMENT'S OFFICE OF FOREIGN ASSETS CONTROLS IS EMPOWERED TO REQUIRE FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS TO BLOCK ANY ASSETS THAT ARE CONTROLLED BY A FOREIGN TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. THAT'S THE LEGAL SIDE OF THE EQUATION, IF YOU WILL, AND THOSE ARE VERY IMPORTANT CONSEQUENCES. AT THE SAME TIME I THINK IT SENDS A VERY POWERFUL SIGNAL TO THE REST OF THE WORLD THAT THE UNITED STATES IS VERY SERIOUS ABOUT COMBATING TERRORISM AND THAT WE ARE WILLING TO IMPLEMENT OUR POLICY PRESCRIPTIONS. WE ARE NOT JUST GOING TO TELL OTHER COUNTRIES WHAT TO DO. WE ARE GOING TO TAKE CONCRETE MEASURES OURSELVES. HOST: HILLARY MANN, WAS THIS THE RIGHT STEP FOR THE U.S. GOVERNMENT TO TAKE? MANN: THIS WAS THE RIGHT STEP AND THIS WAS MANDATED BY CONGRESS IN APRIL OF 1996. IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT AND IN RESPONSE TO SEVERAL REPORTS OF CONCERN THAT WITHIN THE UNITED STATES LEADERS OF SUCH GROUPS AS HAMAS, ISLAMIC JIHAD WERE RAISING MONEY RIGHT HERE IN THE U.S. IN ORDER TO FUND THE TERRORIST OPERATIONS ABROAD THAT KILLED HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE INCLUDING AMERICANS. SO THAT WAS VERY IMPORTANT, IN THAT RESPECT, IN TERMS OF FUNDRAISING, AND ALSO IN TERMS OF, AS MR. GREY HAS POINTED OUT, VISA ISSUANCES. IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT, I THINK, AT THIS TIME IN PARTICULAR, TO SEND A MESSAGE THAT, NOT ONLY THE LAW WAS BEFORE THAT IF YOU HAD ACTUALLY PARTICIPATED IN A TERRORIST ACT YOU COULDN'T COME TO THE US. THIS BROADENS THIS, SO THAT IF YOU ARE A MEMBER OF ONE OF THESE GROUPS, YOU CAN'T COME HERE AND SPEW YOUR VITRIOL AND RHETORIC IN ORDER TO INCITE ANY SORT OF TERRORISM ABROAD THAT COULD BE AGAINST U.S. CITIZENS. HOST: WHAT ELSE HAS THIS LEGISLATION CHANGED? HILLARY MANN JUST MENTIONED THE VISA THING. IT EXPANDS IT IF YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THIS ORGANIZATION, YOU CAN'T COME INTO THE UNITED STATES. ON THE FUNDRAISING ASPECTS HAVE THERE BEEN ANY PROHIBITIONS PRIOR TO THIS LEGISLATION THAT PREVENTED A TERRORIST GROUP FROM RAISING MONEY HERE. GREY: IN JANUARY OF 1995, THE PRESIDENT ISSUED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER, UNDER THE INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY EXECUTIVE POWERS ACT, WHICH BLOCKED FINANCIAL TRANSACTIONS FOR TWELVE GROUPS WHICH SPECIFICALLY EITHER USED VIOLENCE OR THREATENED TO USE VIOLENCE TO DISRUPT THE PEACE PROCESS. THAT'S AN ANNUAL EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT'S BEEN RENEWED EACH YEAR. SO, FOR TWELVE OF THE GROUPS THAT THE SECRETARY OF STATE DESIGNATED ON OCTOBER 8TH, THERE WERE SOME RESTRICTIONS ALREADY IN PLACE. BUT THIS IS A STATUTE THAT WAS ENACTED ON APRIL 24TH, 1996, AND IT'S GOT BROADER CONSEQUENCES. HOST: AND THOSE TWELVE GROUPS HAVE BEEN FOLDED IN. THEY'RE PART OF OF THE THIRTY THAT ARE ON THE LIST. GREY: EXACTLY. HOST: HOW BIG A PROBLEM WAS SUPPORT FROM WITHIN THE UNITED STATES FOR SOME OF THESE TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS TO BEGIN WITH? HOW SUCCESSFUL WERE THEY IN FINDING FUNDS? MANN: IT'S HARD TO MEASURE IN TERMS OF EXACTLY HOW SUCCESSFUL THEY WERE. THERE WAS ABOUT SEVEN-HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS' WORTH OF FUNDS FROM TERRORIST GROUPS FROZEN HERE AS A RESULT OF THE JANUARY 1995 EXECUTIVE ORDER. HOST: AFFECTING THOSE TWELVE GROUPS. MANN: I THINK THE EXACT FIGURE WAS SEVEN-HUNDRED THIRTY-THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS THAT WAS FROZEN HERE. SO IN TERMS OF A DOLLAR AMOUNT, WE'RE TALKING ALMOST A MILLION DOLLARS. BUT WHAT IT GAVE TO TERRORIST GROUPS WAS IT GAVE THEM THE POSSIBILITY OF USING A COUNTRY LIKE THE UNITED STATES WITH OUR FREEDOMS AND OUR DEMOCRACY AND OUR OPENNESS TO COME HERE AND TO USE NOT ONLY OUR BANKING SYSTEM, OUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH RIGHTS, THAT WHOLE PANOPLY OF A FORUM THAT THEY WOULDN'T HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO USE ABROAD. IT WAS A HUGE CONCERN HERE AND WE FEARED IT WOULD GROW WITHOUT SOME SORT OF EFFORT TO COUNTERACT IT. HOST: WHY THESE THIRTY GROUPS? HOW WAS THE DETERMINATION MADE WHICH ORGANIZATION WAS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, AND CERTAINLY THERE ARE MORE THAN THIRTY TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS IN THE WORLD, AND WHY DO WE HAVE THIRTY? GREY: THE LEGISLATION THAT WAS ENACTED HAS THREE SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS. ONE IS THAT ANY DESIGNATED ORGANIZATION SHOULD BE A FOREIGN ORGANIZATION. THE SECOND IS THAT THIS ORGANIZATION ENGAGES IN TERRORIST ACTIVITY. SO FOR GROUPS THAT HAVE PERHAPS BEEN ACTIVE BUT ARE NOW DEFUNCT, IN SOME CASES WE LOOKED AT THEM AND DIDN'T FEEL THAT THEY WERE CURRENTLY ENGAGING IN TERRORIST ACTIVITY. AND THE THIRD ASPECT OF THE LAW REQUIRES A DESIGNATED ORGANIZATION SHOULD EITHER THREATEN THE NATIONAL SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES OR THE SECURITY OF U.S. NATIONALS. AND THE CONGRESS DEFINED NATIONAL SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES IN BROAD TERMS, TALKING ABOUT ECONOMIC AND FOREIGN POLICY ASPECTS OF OUR INTERNATIONAL POLICY. AND OBVIOUSLY THREATS TO UNITED STATES NATIONALS MEANS IF SOMEONE GETS INJURED OR KILLED IN A TERRORIST ACTIVITY. SO THERE ARE MANY ORGANIZATIONS THAT WE CONSIDERED THAT PERHAPS MET TWO OUT OF THE THREE CRITERIA, BUT DIDN'T MEET ALL THREE OF THE CRITERIA THAT WERE SPELLED OUT IN THE LAW. HOST: BECAUSE I KNOW ONE CONCERN, OR QUESTION RAISED WHEN THIS LIST WAS JUST ISSUED IS WHERE IS THE I-R-A? WHY ISN'T THE IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY ON SINCE IN YOUR OWN PUBLICATION ISSUED BY YOUR OFFICE ON "PATTERNS OF GLOBAL TERRORISM," YOU HAVE PICTURES OF TERRORIST ACTS CONDUCTED BY THE I-R-A. YET THEY'RE NOT LISTED AMONG THE THIRTY. WHY IS THAT? GREY: AS THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR PUBLIC AFFAIRS SAID ON OCTOBER 8TH WHEN HE WAS ASKED THIS QUESTION, THERE IS A VERY STRONG BODY OF EVIDENCE THAT DOCUMENTS HISTORIC I-R-A INVOLVEMENT IN ACTS OF TERRORISM. AT THE SAME TIME, IN MAKING HER DECISION ON WHICH GROUPS TO DESIGNATE, THE SECRETARY TOOK NOTE OF THE JULY 19TH UNEQUIVOCAL CEASE-FIRE BY THE I-R-A AND THE BRITISH ACCEPTANCE OF THAT CEASE-FIRE AS GENUINE IN WORD AND DEED. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT THE INCLUSION OF SINN FEIN IN THE ALL-PARTY TALKS IN BELFAST -- BASED ON THAT THE SECRETARY DECIDED TO CONTINUE TO REVIEW THE QUESTION. AGAIN, AS THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY SAID, ANY RESUMPTION OF VIOLENCE BY THE I-R-A WOULD HAVE AN IMMEDIATE AND DIRECT IMPACT ON THAT REVIEW. AND THE STATE DEPARTMENT WILL CONTINUE TO MONITOR THE I-R-A'S ACTIVITIES VERY CLOSELY. HOST: DO YOU THINK THAT WAS THE RIGHT DECISION, HILLARY MANN? MANN: I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THIS IS A LIST THAT IS NOT STATIC. IT'S NOT WRITTEN IN STONE. THESE THIRTY GROUPS ARE NOT THE BE ALL, END ALL OF WHO CONSTITUTES TERRORISM FOR NOW AND INTO THE NEXT CENTURY. SO I THINK IT WAS APPROPRIATE FOR THE STATE DEPARTMENT TO MAKE CERTAIN DECISIONS THAT EVEN THOUGH A GROUP HAD A HISTORICAL PATTERN AND THERE WAS SERIOUS EVIDENCE OF TERRORISM, IF THERE HAS BEEN A CEASE-FIRE AS WITH THE I-R-A AND IT'S ACCEPTED BY THE BRITISH THAT PERHAPS NOT TO INCLUDE THEM NOW WAS THE RIGHT THING -- THOUGH I DO THINK THE STATE DEPARTMENT WILL FOLLOW IT CONTINUOUSLY AND IF THE SITUATION CHANGES HOPEFULLY WILL PUT THEM BACK ON THE LIST. HOST: WERE YOU DISAPPOINTED THAT ANY OTHER GROUPS WERE NOT INCLUDED ON THIS LIST AT THIS TIME? MANN: I THINK A SIMILAR ARGUMENT WAS MADE VIS-AVIS THE P-L-O [PALESTINE LIBERATION ORGANIZATION], WHICH ALSO HAS A VERY SERIOUS AND SIGNIFICANT HISTORICAL BODY OF EVIDENCE THAT THEY HAVE PARTICIPATED IN TERRORISM. BUT AFTER THE HISTORIC HANDSHAKE ON THE WHITE HOUSE LAWN WHERE THE P-L-O BASICALLY RECONCILED WITH THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL, THAT CHANGED THE SITUATION, CHANGED THE DYNAMIC OF THE SITUATION. THOUGH, WITH THE FLUIDITY OF THE SITUATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST I THINK THAT WILL ALSO NEED TO HAVE THE FOCUSED ATTENTION OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND SHOULD BE REASSESSED, AND THAT NOBODY SHOULD BE SITTING BACK AND RELAXING BECAUSE THEIR NAME ISN'T ON THE LIST NOW THAT THEY WON'T BE ADDED LATER. HOST: I THINK ONE REASON GROUPS WERE SO SUCCESSFUL IN RAISING FUNDS IS BECAUSE THEY HAD FRONT GROUPS OR THEY HAD POLITICAL WINGS. YOU MENTIONED SINN FEIN, THE POLITICAL WING OF THE I-R-A. WHERE YOU TAKE SUCH A GROUP AS HAMAS, WHICH HAS CHARITABLE ORGANIZATIONS, RUNS SCHOOLS, AND SO FORTH, AND CAN MAKE APPEALS BASED ON THE FACT THAT YOU'RE HELPING CHILDREN AND SO FORTH. DOES THIS NEW LEGISLATION PREVENT CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE SOCIAL AND POLITICAL WINGS OF ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE DESIGNATED AS TERRORISTS? GREY: YES, IT DOES. IT MAKES IT ILLEGAL TO PROVIDE MATERIAL SUPPORT TO ANY DESIGNATED FOREIGN TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. THE ONLY TWO EXCEPTIONS IN THE LAW ARE MEDICINE AND RELIGIOUS MATERIALS. BUT I'D LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT THERE ARE MANY LEGITIMATE CHARITIES OUT THERE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR THAT HELP, THAT PROVIDE SOCIAL BENEFITS ALL OVER THE WORLD. AND IF PEOPLE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEIR CONTRIBUTIONS GO TO HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, AS OPPOSED TO HELPING TERRORISTS, THERE ARE AMPLE OPPORTUNITIES TO DO THAT. HOST: THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT YOUR WORK IN THE OFFICE OF COUNTERTERRORISM OVER THE YEARS IS THAT YOU HAVE NOT ONLY DOCUMENTED TERRORIST ACTS VERY CAREFULLY, BUT YOU HAVE DESIGNATED STATE SPONSORS OF TERRORISM, OF WHICH, I BELIEVE, THERE ARE SEVEN TODAY. GREY: THAT'S RIGHT. HOST: WHAT I WANTED TO ASK YOU WAS WHAT IS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THESE STATE SPONSORS OF TERRORISM AND THESE THIRTY TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS? GREY: JUST AS BACKGROUND, JUST TO SPECIFY, THERE ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STATUTES. THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT PROCESSES. BUT THAT BEING SAID, THE SECRETARY OF STATE HAS DESIGNATED SEVEN COUNTRIES AS STATE SPONSORS OF TERRORISM. THOSE SEVEN COUNTRIES ARE IRAN, IRAQ, LIBYA, NORTH KOREA, SUDAN, SYRIA, AND CUBA. AND, IN MANY CASES, THESE ORGANIZATIONS PROVIDE DIRECT SUPPORT FOR SOME OF THE FOREIGN TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS THAT THE SECRETARY OF STATE DESIGNATED. PERHAPS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF A STATE SPONSOR IS IRAN, WHICH VERY ACTIVELY FUNDS HEZBOLLAH AND SOME OF THE OTHER PALESTINIAN REJECTIONIST GROUP. IT' NOT JUST A QUESTION OF PROVIDING FUNDS, IT'S ALSO A QUESTION OF PROVIDING ARMS, TRAINING, ECT. HOST: NOW, I DID NOTICE IN THE INTRODUCTION OF THIS LIST A MEMBER OF THIS ADMINISTRATION MADE THE STATEMENT THAT THIS LEGISLATION AND THE ENFORCEMENT OF IT IS ALL THE MORE IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT APPEARS THAT THERE HAS BEEN SOME LESSENING IN THE STATE SPONSOR OF TERRORISM SUPPORT FOR GROUPS LIKE THIS. IS THAT THE CASE? MANN: I WOULDN'T USE THE WORD "LESSENING" OF SUPPORT. I THINK THAT TERRORIST GROUPS IN THE NINETIES HAVE BECOME MUCH MORE SOPHISTICATED AND THAT THEY HAVE NOT CHOSEN TO RELY ON A PARTICULAR STATE AS THE ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT SOURCE OF THEIR SUPPORT. THEY HAVE FOUND THAT THEY NEED MORE ROOM TO MANEUVER. THAT THERE ARE MORE INDEPENDENT FINANCIERS, LIKE ONE OF THE MOST NOTORIOUS IS USAMA BIN LADIN, WHO IS BASED IN AFGHANISTAN, A SAUDI NATIONAL. AND THAT THERE ARE OTHER WAYS FOR THEM TO GET THEIR FINANCIAL AND ALSO TRAINING KINDS OF SUPPORT. AND THAT THEY DON'T NEED TO BE AND SHOULDN'T BE RELYING ON A PARTICULAR STATE. BUT I WOULDN'T NECESSARILY SAY THERE HAS BEEN A LESSENING. I THINK THERE HAS BEEN A SOPHISTICATION, MORE, IN TERMS OF THE GROUPS AND THEY HAVE CHOSEN TO WIDEN THEIR BASE OF SUPPORT. GREY: I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT. I'D ALSO POINT OUT THAT A VERY TROUBLING PHENOMENON THAT WE ARE SEEING IN THE WORLD TODAY IS THAT STATE SPONSORS AND COHERENT GROUPS, IF YOU WILL, ARE NO LONGER THE SOLE PRACTITIONERS OF TERRORISM TODAY. YOU MENTIONED USAM BIN LADIN AND THAT'S A PRIME EXAMPLE, I THINK, OF A LOOSE KNIT GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT TERRORISM. OFTENTIMES THEY FORGED A FRIENDSHIP TOGETHER IN THE RESISTANCE AGAINST THE SOVIETS IN THE EIGHTIES. AND THESE GROUPS ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO TRACK BECAUSE THEY DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE STRONG LINKS WITH EITHER STATE SPONSORS OF TERRORISM OR WITH A SPECIFIC GROUP. HOST: I WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT IF THIS IS THE CASE AND FOR REASONS OF DIVERSIFYING SOURCES OF SUPPORT THEY HAVE TO RAISE MONEY PRIVATELY IN VARIOUS COUNTRIES, THAT'S ITS ALL THE MORE IMPORTANT THAT, NOT JUST OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT THAT OUR ALLIES HAVE MEASURES SUCH AS THIS TO STOP THESE GROUPS FROM RAISING FUNDS IN THEIR COUNTRY. ARE THERE SUCH LAWS IN OTHER COUNTRIES OR ARE WE ENGAGED IN ANY EFFORT TO ENCOURAGE THEM TO . . . GREY: I THINK THE UNITED STATES IS REALLY IN THE FOREFRONT OF THIS SPECIFIC LEGAL BATTLE, TO TRY AND LIMIT THE ABILITY OF TERRORISTS AND TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS TO RAISE FUNDS. BUT THAT BEING SAID, WE HAVE MADE, IN OUR BILATERAL AND MULTILATERAL CONSULTATIONS WITH OTHER COUNTRIES, WE HAVE MADE A POINT OF EMPHASIZING THE NEED FOR STRICTER NATIONAL LEGISLATION. WE'VE DONE THIS BOTH PRIVATELY, AS I MENTIONED, IN OUR DIPLOMATIC EXCHANGES, BUT IT'S ALSO A GOAL THAT HAS BEEN ENDORSED BY THE COUNTRIES OF THE EIGHT [INDUSTRIALIZED DEMOCRACIES AND RUSSIA]. SO I THINK THERE'S POTENTIAL FOR SOME ACTION THERE. MANN: I'D LIKE TO COMMENT ON THAT. IN 1996, AFTER THE WAVE OF SUICIDE BOMBINGS IN THE SPRING OF '96 IN ISRAEL, COUNTRIES FROM ALL OVER THE MIDDLE EAST, INCLUDING ISRAEL, ARAB COUNTRIES, TURKEY, EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, JAPAN, THE UNITED STATES, CAME TOGETHER AND VOWED THAT THEY WOULD WORK PRECISELY ON THIS QUESTION OF COMING TOGETHER AND LOOKING AT WAYS THAT THEY COULD FORMULATE LAWS AND TAKE A MORE GLOBAL EFFORT. I THINK, WHILE WE HAVE SEEN SOME BILATERAL MOVEMENT THAT HAS BEEN VERY POSITIVE, PARTICULARLY WHERE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IS CONCERNED BY SOME BILATERAL WORK THERE, THERE REALLY HAS BEEN A DROPPING OF THE BALL. THAT THE COUNTRIES, PARTICULARLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST, HAVE DECIDED NOT TO COME TOGETHER, IN CONTRAST TO THEIR WORDS THAT THEY WOULD AFTER THAT SUMMIT IN THE SPRING OF 1996. SO, INSTEAD OF HAVING A LOT OF THE ARAB STATES AND ISRAEL AND TURKEY WORKING WITH THE U.S. AND THE G-7, WE HAVEN'T SEEN THAT. AND I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE MORE UNFORTUNATE HAPPENINGS IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS THAT THAT EUPHORIA THAT THERE IS A SOLUTION DOWN THE ROAD HAS REALLY DISAPPEARED. HOST: WHAT HAS THE REACTION BEEN TO THE PUBLICATION OF THIS LIST SO FAR, FROM OTHER COUNTRIES AND ALSO FROM THESE GROUPS THEMSELVES? GREY: THE REACTION HAS BEEN PRETTY PREDICTABLE. MANY OF THE DESIGNATED ORGANIZATIONS AND, I'M THINKING OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, OF HAMAS AND HEZBOLLAH, HAVE DENOUNCED IT, SAYING IT'S UNFAIR, NOT WARRANTED, ETC. CONVERSELY, SOME OF THE GOVERNMENTS OF COUNTRIES THAT ARE AFFECTED BY TERRORIST ACTIVITY, FOR EXAMPLE, SRI LANKA, HAVE WELCOMED THE DESIGNATIONS AND HAVE EXPRESSED THEIR HOPE THAT OTHER COUNTRIES WILL FOLLOW SUIT AND WILL ENACT STRICTER NATIONAL LEGISLATION. MANN: I AGREE WITH THAT. THERE HAS BEEN ANGER FROM SOME OF THE GROUPS. LIKE I WAS READING A REPORT THAT HEZBOLLAH REACTED VERY ANGRILY AT BEING DESIGNATED ON THE LIST. BUT, AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK IT HAS BEEN CITED AS ENORMOUS HELP TO SOME OF THE COUNTRIES LIKE ISRAEL AND TURKEY AND SRI LANKA. THAT THIS IS EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES THAT RECOGNIZE THE THREAT. THAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT STANDS BEHIND THEM IN THEIR FIGHT AGAINST TERRORISM. HOST: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I'M AFRAID THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE THIS WEEK. I'D LIKE TO THANK OUR GUESTS -- HILLARY MANN, OF THE WASHINGTON INSTITUTE FOR NEAR EAST POLICY, AND GORDON GREY, DIRECTOR OF REGIONAL AFFAIRS OF THE OFFICE OF COUNTER-TERRORSIM AT THE U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT -- FOR JOINING ME TO DISCUSS DE-FUNDING INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM. THIS IS ROBERT REILLY FOR ON THE LINE. 17-Oct-97 4:16 PM EDT (2016 UTC) NNNN Source: Voice of America .