THE COUNTERNARCOTICS REWARDS PROGRAM

DATE= NOVEMBER 1, 1997
TYPE=ON THE LINE
NUMBER=1-00579
TITLE=THE COUNTERNARCOTICS REWARDS PROGRAM
EDITOR=OFFICE OF POLICY - 619-0037
CONTENT=
THEME: UP, HOLD UNDER AND FADE

ANNCR: ON THE LINE -- A DISCUSSION OF UNITED STATES POLICIES AND CONTEMPORARY ISSUES. THIS WEEK, "THE COUNTERNARCOTICS REWARDS PROGRAM." HERE IS YOUR HOST, ROBERT REILLY.

HOST: HELLO AND WELCOME TO ON THE LINE.

PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON HAS CALLED FOR STRONGER EFFORTS TO FIGHT THE INCREASINGLY INTERCONNECTED GROUPS THAT TRAFFIC IN TERROR, ORGANIZED CRIME AND ILLEGAL DRUGS. ONE TOOL THE U.S. IS USING IS A PROGRAM WHICH OFFERS REWARDS TO THOSE WHO ASSIST IN BRINGING NARCOTICS TRAFFICKERS TO JUSTICE. IN SEPTEMBER, THE STATE DEPARTMENT OFFERED A TWO-MILLION DOLLAR REWARD FOR INFORMATION LEADING TO THE APPREHENSION OF RAMON ARRELLANO-FELIX, ONE OF THE LEADERS OF THE TIJUANA DRUG CARTEL.

JOINING ME TODAY TO DISCUSS U.S. POLICY AND THE FIGHT AGAINST DRUG TRAFFICKING IS JONATHAN WINER, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT AFFAIRS. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

PRESIDENT CLINTON HAS GONE SO FAR AS TO CALL DRUG TRAFFICKING A NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES. THAT'S USUALLY A TERM PEOPLE ASSOCIATE WITH MILITARY THREATS -- MISSILES, ARMIES ON THE MARCH. IS THAT HYPERBOLE? OR HOW WOULD YOU ASSESS THE PROBLEM TODAY?

WINER: WHEN'S THE LAST TIME THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN INVADED BY ANOTHER COUNTRY? YOU'VE GOT TO GO BACK MANY DECADES FOR A FOREIGN INVASION. IN FACT, FOR MOST COUNTRIES, THAT'S TRUE. BUT, LITERALLY, EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK -- IN FACT, PROBABLY EVERY HOUR OF THE DAY -- THE BORDERS OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE BORDERS OF PRACTICALLY EVERY OTHER COUNTRY OF THE WORLD ARE BEING INVADED BY DRUG TRAFFICKERS AND INTERNATIONAL CRIMINALS. AND THAT INVASION WINDS UP ASSAULTING PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY, BECAUSE THE POISONS THAT GET PUSHED INTO THE COMMUNITY WIND UP KILLING PEOPLE, WIND UP CAUSING VIOLENCE. THIS IS A NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT. IT THREATENS THE SURVIVABILITY OF DEMOCRACIES, IN SOME CASES. IT THREATENS THE LIFE OF THE COMMUNITY IN MANY CASES. AND IT'S SOMETHING PRESIDENT CLINTON HAS DETERMINED TO PUT THE POWER OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT AGAINST.

HOST: WELL, INDEED, HE HAS SAID IT'S NOT ONLY A THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES, BUT TO DEVELOPING COUNTRIES AND DEMOCRACIES TRYING TO GET ON THEIR FEET?

WINER: ABSOLUTELY. WHAT'S INTERESTING IS: YEARS AGO, COUNTRIES THAT WERE TRANSIT COUNTRIES WOULD SAY, "OKAY, THE COUNTRIES THAT SUPPLY THE DRUGS HAVE GOT A PROBLEM. THERE'S VIOLENCE ASSOCIATED WITH THE SUPPLY. COUNTRIES THAT DEMAND THE DRUGS HAVE GOT A PROBLEM. BUT WE TRANSIT COUNTRIES DON'T HAVE PROBLEMS. LET THE DRUGS GO. WHY SHOULD WE CARE ABOUT A LITTLE BIT OF MONEY PASSING THROUGH." WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THAT THERE'S NOT A SINGLE TRANSIT COUNTRY FOR THE MOVEMENT OF NARCOTICS WHICH HAS AVOIDED HAVING A GROWING ADDICT PROBLEM, GROWING PROBLEMS OF DRUG-RELATED VIOLENCE. DRUGS LITERALLY CONTAMINATE EVERYTHING THEY TOUCH. DRUGS ARE NOT BAD BECAUSE THEY'RE ILLEGAL. COCAINE IS NOT SOMETHING BAD BECAUSE IT'S OUTLAWED. THEY ARE ILLEGAL BECAUSE THEY'RE BAD. THEY'RE VERY DAMAGING SUBSTANCES WHICH CAUSE TREMENDOUS INJURY TO THE PEOPLE, TO THE FAMILIES OF THE PEOPLE, TO THE WORKPLACES WHERE PEOPLE WORK, TO THE COMMUNITIES. AND IT JUST SPREADS OUT, IT RADIATES OUT, CAUSING HEALTH CARE COSTS, RUINING LIVES, VIOLENCE, DESTROYING PROPERTY, UNDERMINING PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO WORK. VERY, VERY BAD STUFF. WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO BE FOCUSED ON IN PARTICULAR IS SAYING TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PUSHING THIS STUFF, "WE DON'T CARE WHERE YOU ARE. WE DON'T CARE HOW SAFE YOU FEEL. THERE WILL BE NO SAFE HAVEN FOR YOU. WE'RE GOING TO JOIN TOGETHER WITH OTHER COUNTRIES. WE'RE GOING TO GO AFTER YOU. AND YOU WILL BE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE. AND THAT IS THE CORE OF THE UNITED STATES STRATEGY AND, INDEED, OF THE STRATEGY OF MOST OF THE WORLD AT THIS POINT.

HOST: ALL RIGHT. HOW DO WE DO THAT?

WINER: WELL, ONE INTERESTING WAY IN WHICH WE'RE DOING IT RIGHT NOW, IN ADDITION TO BUILDING MULTILATERAL COOPERATION AGAINST NARCOTICS ACROSS THE BOARD . . .

HOST: THROUGH WHICH INSTITUTIONS?

WINER: THROUGH THE UNITED NATIONS. WE'VE GOT ANTI-DRUG PROGRAMS THROUGH THE ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN STATES. WE'RE WORKING WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION THROUGH BILATERAL AGREEMENTS. THERE'S AN ENTIRE WEB, A NETWORKING OF GOVERNMENTS THAT'S NOW GOING ON. YOU'VE GOT LITERALLY, EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK, THE UNITED STATES WORKING WITH PANAMA OR MEXICO OR COLOMBIA IN THE AMERICAS. OR WITH PAKISTAN OR WITH INDIA, OR WITH THAILAND, OR THE EUROPEANS OR WITH RUSSIA. EXCHANGING CRIMINAL JUSTICE INFORMATION TO MAKE CASES INVOLVING TRANSNATIONAL CRIMINALS. IT USED TO BE, YOUR LAW ENFORCEMENT STOPPED AT THE BORDER'S EDGE. BUT THE CRIMINALS DON'T STOP AT THE BORDER. THE CRIMINALS DO NOT STOP AT THE BORDER. THEY CROSS THE BORDER. SO, THE LAW ENFORCEMENT PEOPLE AND THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES AND, YES, EVEN THE DIPLOMATS LIKE ME, HAVE GOT TO CROSS THE BORDER TO LINK UP WITH THEIR COUNTERPARTS AND CREATE INTERNATIONAL NETWORKS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT TO GO AFTER THE INTERNATIONAL NETWORKS OF DRUG TRAFFICKERS. AND WE'RE DOING IT. ONE VERY INTERESTING PROGRAM THAT WE'RE USING TO STRENGTHEN THAT AND TO GET THE ORDINARY INDIVIDUAL AND THE PUBLIC INVOLVED IS TO SAY WE'RE GOING TO TAKE THE F-B-I REWARDS PROGRAM THAT WE'VE HAD -- THE F-B-I'S TOP TEN THAT WE'VE HAD FOR SO LONG IN THE UNITED STATES, IT'S BEEN SO EFFECTIVE . . .

HOST: THE TOP TEN CRIMINALS.

WINER: YES, THE CRIMINALS WE WANT THE MOST. AND WE'RE GOING TO INTERNATIONALIZE IT. THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO PAY REWARDS -- A MILLION DOLLARS, TWO MILLION DOLLARS -- SUBSTANTIAL REWARDS TO GET ORDINARY CITIZENS WHO MAY KNOW SOMETHING IMPORTANT SOMETIMES ABOUT AN INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL, AND TO GIVE THEM A CHANCE IF THEY WANT TO REPORT THAT INFORMATION TO THE UNITED STATES IN SAFETY AND SECURITY. THEY WANT TO REPORT THAT INFORMATION. IF THAT INFORMATION LEADS TO THE ARREST, THE CONVICTION OF THIS CRIMINAL, WE'LL PAY LARGE SUMS OF MONEY TO DO THAT. THAT CREATES AN INCENTIVE FOR ORDINARY CITIZENS TO GET INVOLVED. IT ALSO CREATES A SENSE OF THREAT AND A RISK TO CRIMINALS THAT INDIVIDUALS IN THEIR OWN ORGANIZATION, TEMPTED BY REAL MONEY AND A CHANCE TO BREAK FREE, MAYBE EVEN HAVE A NEW LIFE AND A NEW IDENTITY -- BECAUSE WE DO THAT, TOO -- WILL TURN THEM IN. AND IT'S HAPPENED. IT WORKS.

HOST: THIS IS CALLED THE COUNTER-NARCOTICS REWARDS PROGRAM.

WINER: WE DO IT FOR TWO KINDS OF THE WORST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. WE DO IT TO THE BIG DRUG TRAFFICKERS AND WE DO IT TO THE MAJOR TERRORISTS. AND THIS REWARDS PROGRAM HAS RESULTED IN THE PAYMENT OF SOMETIMES MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF REWARDS, SOMETIMES HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, DEPENDING ON HOW BIG THE CASE IS, HOW IMPORTANT THE INFORMATION IS, TO BRING TERRORISTS BACK TO THE UNITED STATES FOR TRIAL WHEN THEY HAVE UNDERTAKEN ACTIONS THAT HAVE KILLED PEOPLE, AND TO BRING DRUG TRAFFICKERS BACK TO THE UNITED STATES FOR TRIAL WHEN THEY HAVE UNDERTAKEN ACTIONS THAT HAVE BROUGHT SUBSTANTIAL QUANTITIES OF THESE TERRIBLE POISONS TO THE UNITED STATES.

HOST: CAN YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE IN EACH CASE OF HOW THIS PROGRAM HAS WORKED?

WINER: WELL, SURE. JUAN GARCIA ABREGO, AN IMPORTANT MEXICAN KINGPIN WHO'S IN THE UNITED STATES, WAS TURNED OVER BY THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT. SOME OF THE CRITICAL INFORMATION THAT WE GOT IN THE INDICTMENT OF JUAN GARCIA ABREGO CAME FROM PEOPLE OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES, FROM MEXICAN CITIZENS WHO PROVIDED THIS INFORMATION IN CONFIDENCE TO THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT AND, IN TURN, WERE PAID SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNTS OF MONEY AFTER THAT INFORMATION TURNED OUT TO BE ACCURATE AND TRUE AND HELPFUL IN PUTTING THIS GUY IN JAIL.

HOST: AND SO YOU'RE HOPING THAT THIS TWO MILLION DOLLAR OFFER OF A REWARD FOR ARELLANO-FELIX OF THE TIJUANA CARTEL WILL PRODUCE SIMILAR RESULTS?

WINER: YES, WE HOPE SO. THE REWARD ISSUE'S PART OF IT. AGAIN, IT'S NOT MERELY A REWARD. SOME PEOPLE NEED AN ENTIRE NEW LIFE FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILY -- RELOCATION, NEW IDENTITY, THE WHOLE THING. WE DON'T WANT THESE PEOPLE TO FEEL, WE WILL NOT PERMIT THESE PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ANYWHERE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH WHERE THEY CAN HAVE SAFE HAVEN.

HOST: WELL, OF COURSE, THIS IS ONE THING THAT DRUG TRAFFICKERS HAVE USED TO THEIR ADVANTAGE AND THAT IS FEAR AND THE WAY IN WHICH THEY HAVE CORRUPTED JUDICIARIES, POLITICIANS. FOR INSTANCE, IN COLOMBIA, BY APPEARING IN A JUDGE'S, OR A LEGISLATOR'S OFFICE WITH AN ATTACHE CASE FULL OF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS . . .

WINER: SILVER OR LEAD, IS THE TERM. WE OFFER YOU SILVER, OR WE OFFER YOU LEAD.

HOST: A PHOTO ALBUM OF HIS FAMILY, CHILDREN GOING TO SCHOOL, HIS WIFE SHOPPING FOR FOOD, OR THE PERSON HIMSELF WALKING TO WORK, AND THE MESSAGE IS, EITHER WE'LL CORRUPT YOU OR WE'LL KILL YOU. THAT'S YOUR CHOICE.

WINER: THAT'S RIGHT. AND ONE OF THE INTERESTING ASPECTS OF THIS REWARDS PROGRAM IS IT SAYS TO PEOPLE THAT WE'RE GOING TO CREATE AN ALTERNATIVE NETWORK, NOT JUST OF YOUR LOCAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS WORKING WITH US, BUT LITERALLY THAT YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING WHETHER EVERYONE AROUND YOU IS LOYAL BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO CREATE THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR PEOPLE TO LEAD A GOOD LIFE WITHOUT YOU, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE AND HOW POWERFUL YOU THINK YOU ARE.

HOST: BECAUSE THEIR RESOURCES, AS WAS RECENTLY ILLUSTRATED BY A MEXICAN GENERAL, ARE SUBSTANTIAL. HE SAID HE WAS OFFERED ONE MILLION DOLLARS A MONTH IF HE WOULD ONLY LOOK THE OTHER WAY AS THE DRUG TRAFFICKERS CARRIED ON. IN THIS CASE, HE WAS AN HONEST MAN.

WINER: THAT'S RIGHT. AND THE MILLION DOLLARS IS A HARD THING TO TURN DOWN. BUT WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS TO SAY, "WE'RE NOT JUST GOING TO ASK YOU TO DO THIS OUT OF THE GOODNESS OF YOUR HEART. GOODNESS OF YOUR HEART IS IMPORTANT; WE ALL HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO HELP ONE ANOTHER TO DEAL WITH THESE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINALS. BUT WE'RE ALSO GOING TO MAKE IT WORTH YOUR WHILE, WORTH YOUR FAMILY'S WHILE, TO GO TO THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE LAW. AND IT'S INTERESTING. ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT CASES FOR OUR GOVERNMENT EVER IN THE MODERN HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY WAS THE CASE OF MIR KASI. HE WAS A TERRORIST WHO KILLED SEVERAL OF OUR GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES AS THEY WERE WAITING TO GO INTO WORK. A RANDOM KILLING. HE WAS ANGRY FOR SOME POLITICAL REASON AND HE WENT IN AND KILLED A BUNCH OF PEOPLE. HE THEN FLED TO HIS HOMELAND, WHICH WAS PAKISTAN, AND WE HAD REPORTS FROM TIME TO TIME OF HIS LOCATION, PAKISTAN OR AFGHANISTAN, REPORTS HE WAS BEING TAKEN CARE OF BY FRIENDS OR FAMILY. AND WE, FOR A VERY LONG TIME, WERE NOT ABLE TO BRING HIM TO JUSTICE. IT'S NOT A MATTER OF SAYING THAT THE MAN'S GUILTY, LET'S CONVICT HIM. BUT LET'S TRY HIM. WE BELIEVE HE KILLED THESE PEOPLE; LET'S TRY HIM. AND WE HAD A REWARDS PROGRAM AND WE ACTUALLY PRINTED UP MATCHBOOKS. I'VE GOT A COPY HERE: A MATCHBOOK AND A BROCHURE IN ENGLISH AND IN ARABIC. WE DISTRIBUTED THIS THROUGHOUT THE REGION.

HOST: EACH CONTAINING INFORMATION ON HIS SUSPECTED CRIME AND THE REWARD.

WINER: THE ALLEGATION THAT HE'D MURDERED TWO AMERICANS AND SEVERELY INJURED SOME OTHERS AND THAT THERE WAS A TWO MILLION DOLLAR REWARD FOR HIM. IT WAS IN ENGLISH AND ARABIC -- THESE BROCHURES AND THESE MATCHES. AND THIS PROGRAM WOUND UP HAVING AN IMPACT AND BEING A COMPONENT OF THE INFORMATION WE DEVELOPED AS A COUNTRY THAT ENABLED US TO GO FINALLY RETRIEVE MR. KASI WITH THE COOPERATION OF THE PAKISTANI GOVERNMENT AND BRING HIM BACK TO THE UNITED STATES FOR TRIAL. HE'S NOT BEEN CONVICTED YET.

HOST: BUT HE WILL GO TO TRIAL.

WINER: HE WILL GO TO TRIAL LIKE ANYONE ELSE IN THE UNITED STATES. HE WILL RECEIVE A FAIR TRIAL AND IF HE'S FOUND TO BE GUILTY BY A JURY, HE'LL SERVE A SENTENCE. AND IF HE'S ACQUITTED, HE'LL BE ACQUITTED. BUT THE POINT IS HE'S GOING TO FACE JUSTICE. THAT WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT THIS PROGRAM OR THIS KIND OF INTERNATIONAL EFFORT.

HOST: WELL, YOU'VE HAD OTHER SUCCESS IN PAKISTAN, I BELIEVE, WITH ASHRAF RANA WHO IS A DRUG TRAFFICKER?

WINER: BIG HEROIN TRAFFICKER. ONCE AGAIN, INFORMATION FROM THIS REWARDS PROGRAM LED US TO HIM AND MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR US TO BRING HIM TO JUSTICE. AND THE MESSAGE THERE, AGAIN, IS NO SAFE HAVEN. IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW FAR YOU GO. IF YOU HAVE COMMITTED SERIOUS CRIMES AFFECTING THE WELFARE OF OUR PEOPLE, WE ARE GOING TO DO WHATEVER IS NECESSARY AND LEGAL TO GET YOU BACK. BECAUSE WE HAVE GOT TO WORK WITH OTHER COUNTRIES TO DO IT. WE CANNOT DO IT ALONE. THE UNITED STATES CANNOT DEFEND ITSELF WITHOUT THE COOPERATION OF LITERALLY EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. WE HAVE TO CREATE AN INTERNATIONAL NETWORK ACROSS THE BOARD THAT DENIES SAFE HAVEN.

HOST: WELL, SPEAKING OF THAT THOUGH, IN TERMS OF COOPERATION WITH OTHER COUNTRIES, YOU HAVE PROBLEMS WITH COUNTRIES THAT ARE NOT COOPERATING OR ARE INCAPABLE OF COOPERATING. AND THERE IS A CERTIFICATION PROCESS IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AND, I BELIEVE, SOME HALF DOZEN COUNTRIES WERE DECERTIFIED. COULD YOU TELL US, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? IS THAT AN EFFECTIVE TOOL IN THIS FIGHT AGAINST ILLEGAL DRUGS?

WINER: SURE. ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO, OUR CONGRESS SAID TO THEN-PRESIDENT [RONALD] REAGAN: WE GIVE FOREIGN ASSISTANCE OF VARIOUS KINDS TO LOTS AND LOTS OF PEOPLE. IT'S THE LEAST WE CAN DO TO ASK BEFORE WE GIVE THEM FOREIGN ASSISTANCE, THAT THEY'RE MEETING THEIR INTERNATIONAL TREATY COMMITMENTS TO COMBAT COUNTER-NARCOTICS. THERE'S A U-N CONVENTION THAT PRACTICALLY EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD HAS SIGNED CALLED THE VIENNA CONVENTION, WHICH COMMITS EVERY COUNTRY TO FIGHT ILLICIT DRUGS. AND SO WHAT DEVELOPED OUT OF THAT WAS A PROCESS BY WHICH THE PRESIDENT CERTIFIES TO THE CONGRESS BEFORE HE GIVES FOREIGN ASSISTANCE TO ANY COUNTRY THAT IS A MAJOR DRUG TRANSIT COUNTRY OR A MAJOR DRUG PRODUCTION COUNTRY THAT THIS COUNTRY IS MEETING ITS INTERNATIONAL COMMITMENTS AND IS COOPERATING WITH US IN DOING SO. AND EVERY YEAR WE FIND THAT THERE ARE A FEW COUNTRIES THAT DON'T. MOST DO. A FEW DON'T. ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT ISSUES FOR US WITH THE GOVERNMENT OF COLOMBIA, FOR EXAMPLE, OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS HAS BEEN THE FACT THAT THEY WILL NOT EXTRADITE THEIR NATIONALS. WHAT HAPPENED IN THE LATE 1980S, EARLY NINETIES, IS THAT THEIR DRUG CRIMINALS PURCHASED THE VOTES OF THE PEOPLE IN THE COLOMBIAN LEGISLATURE TO CHANGE THE COLOMBIA CONSTITUTION TO MAKE IT ILLEGAL TO EXTRADITE. WELL, THE RESULT WAS, A BUNCH OF COCAINE KINGPINS WHO PURCHASED THAT CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE HAVE NOT BEEN TRIED, HAVE NOT SERVED SERIOUS SENTENCES FOR MAJOR LEAGUE DRUG TRAFFICKING. NOW, THERE ARE VERY COURAGEOUS PEOPLE IN COLOMBIA OFFICIALDOM, SOME SENIOR COLOMBIAN OFFICIALS EVEN, PEOPLE THROUGHOUT COLOMBIA HAVE BEEN TRYING TO CHANGE THAT. THERE'S A VERY ACTIVE DEBATE IN COLOMBIA RIGHT NOW ABOUT ELIMINATING THAT EXCEPTION, BECAUSE THEY REALIZE IT WAS PURCHASED BY THE DRUG TRAFFICKERS AND THAT ORDINARY PEOPLE IN COLOMBIA AREN'T PEOPLE WHO COMMIT INTERNATIONAL CRIMES AND DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT BEING EXTRADITED. NOW, THE U.S. WILL EXTRADITE AMERICANS TO ANY COUNTRY WITH WHOM IT HAS AN EXTRADITION TREATY IF THEY VIOLATE THE LAWS OF THAT COUNTRY. WE WILL NOT PROVIDE SAFE HAVEN FOR OUR CITIZENS HERE. WE DON'T BELIEVE IN IT. IF OUR CITIZEN HAS COMMITTED A CRIME IN ANOTHER COUNTRY, BEEN CHARGED UNDER THE LAWS OF THAT COUNTRY AND WE HAVE AN EXTRADITION TREATY, THEY SHOULD GO AND BE TRIED UNDER THE LAWS OF THAT COUNTRY.

HOST: BUT THE END RESULT OF THIS IS THAT COLOMBIA WAS DECERTIFIED UNDER THIS PROCESS?

WINER: THAT'S RIGHT, BECAUSE COLOMBIANS TODAY, IF THEY COMMIT SERIOUS CRIMES IN THE UNITED STATES AND GO BACK TO COLOMBIA, WILL NOT BE SENT BY COLOMBIA TO THE UNITED STATES FOR TRIAL.

HOST: NOW, MEXICO WAS CERTIFIED, HOWEVER, DESPITE A RATHER HEALTHY DEBATE ON THE SUBJECT.

WINER: WELL, JUAN GARCIA ABREGO WAS TURNED OVER. HE'S A DUAL NATIONAL. HE HAD MEXICAN CITIZENSHIP AS WELL AS U.S. CITIZENSHIP, AND HE WAS TURNED OVER BY THE GOVERNMENT OF MEXICO. NOT WITHOUT SOME ANXIETIES, BUT HE WAS TURNED OVER FOR TRIAL. AND IT'S PRECISELY THAT KIND OF COOPERATION WHERE WE SAY WE RESPECT ONE ANOTHER'S LEGAL SYSTEMS. WE WILL ENTRUST OUR CITIZENS TO ONE ANOTHER WHEN WE HAVE TREATIES. THAT IS ESSENTIAL TO FIGHT THE TRAFFICKERS. OTHERWISE, THEY WIND UP WITH SAFE HAVEN.

HOST: IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT THE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE BEEN DECERTIFIED, LIKE NIGERIA, AFGHANISTAN, BURMA, SYRIA, ET CETERA, ARE INDEED THE SOURCE OF THE DRUG PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD TODAY IN TERMS OF CREATION AND TRANSIT?

WINER: WELL, THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY SOURCES. EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES, BEARS A SHARE OF THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE DRUG PROBLEM. THERE'S MORE WE ALL CAN DO. COUNTRIES THAT HAVE DEMAND HAVE GOT TO WORK VERY HARD TO REDUCE DEMAND THROUGH DRUG TREATMENT PROGRAMS AND DRUG EDUCATION PROGRAMS AS WELL AS THROUGH ENFORCEMENT. BUT THE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE BEEN DECERTIFIED HAVE REALLY BEEN INTERNATIONAL BAD ACTORS. NIGERIA HAS NOT EXTRADITED ANYONE TO THE UNITED STATES IN YEARS NOW FOR MAJOR DRUG OFFENSES, DOESN'T COOPERATE WELL WITH OUR GOVERNMENTS ON LAW ENFORCEMENT ISSUES. BURMA'S RESPONSIBLE FOR SEVENTY PERCENT OF THE WORLD'S OPIUM CROP. THERE ARE LOTS OF ALLEGATIONS OF COLLUSION BETWEEN THE BURMESE GOVERNMENT AND MAJOR DRUG TRAFFICKERS, SOUTHEAST ASIAN HEROIN. THE TALEBAN IN AFGHANISTAN HAVE CERTAINLY BEEN COLLUDING IN THE HEROIN TRAFFIC OUT OF AFGHANISTAN. THEY'VE BEEN SAYING SOME OF THE RIGHT THINGS LATELY, BUT IT'S BEEN A VERY SUBSTANTIAL PROBLEM. SO THE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE BEEN DECERTIFIED HAVE BEEN COUNTRIES THAT REALLY HAVE FAILED TO MEET THEIR COMMITMENTS, NOT JUST TO THE UNITED STATES, BUT INTERNATIONALLY, TO EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

HOST: ALL RIGHT. I'M AFRAID THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE THIS WEEK. I'D LIKE TO THANK OUR GUEST -- JONATHAN WINER, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT AFFAIRS -- FOR JOINING ME TO DISCUSS THE FIGHT AGAINST ILLEGAL DRUGS. IF YOU HAVE INFORMATION REGARDING MAJOR NARCOTICS TRAFFICKERS, CONTACT THE NEAREST U.S. EMBASSY OR CONSULATE, OR WRITE TO THE FOLLOWING ADDRESS: HEROES, POST OFFICE BOX 96781, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20090-6781, U.S.A. YOU MAY ALSO CALL 1-800-437-6371. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION ON DRUG TRAFFICKERS AND THE COUNTERNARCOTICS REWARDS PROGRAM, VISIT THE STATE DEPARTMENT'S WEB PAGE AT THIS INTERNET ADDRESS: WWW.HEROES.NET. THE U.S. WILL ENSURE COMPLETE CONFIDENTIALITY TO INDIVIDUALS WHO PROVIDE INFORMATION. IF APPROPRIATE, THE U.S. WILL RELOCATE THESE INDIVIDUALS AND THEIR FAMILIES. THIS IS ROBERT REILLY FOR ON THE LINE.

30-Oct-97 3:32 PM EST (2032 UTC) NNNN Source: Voice of America .