RUSSIAN THREATS TO UNITED STATES SECURITY IN THE POST-COLD WAR ERA
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HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT REFORM
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SIXTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
JANUARY 24, 2000
__________
Serial No. 106-158
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpo.gov/congress/house
http://www.house.gov/reform
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
66-968 WASHINGTON : 2000
______
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM
DAN BURTON, Indiana, Chairman
BENJAMIN A. GILMAN, New York HENRY A. WAXMAN, California
CONSTANCE A. MORELLA, Maryland TOM LANTOS, California
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut ROBERT E. WISE, Jr., West Virginia
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida MAJOR R. OWENS, New York
JOHN M. McHUGH, New York EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York
STEPHEN HORN, California PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania
JOHN L. MICA, Florida PATSY T. MINK, Hawaii
THOMAS M. DAVIS, Virginia CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
DAVID M. McINTOSH, Indiana ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, Washington,
MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana DC
JOE SCARBOROUGH, Florida CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania
STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland
MARSHALL ``MARK'' SANFORD, South DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio
Carolina ROD R. BLAGOJEVICH, Illinois
BOB BARR, Georgia DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
DAN MILLER, Florida JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts
ASA HUTCHINSON, Arkansas JIM TURNER, Texas
LEE TERRY, Nebraska THOMAS H. ALLEN, Maine
JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois HAROLD E. FORD, Jr., Tennessee
GREG WALDEN, Oregon JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
DOUG OSE, California ------
PAUL RYAN, Wisconsin BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
HELEN CHENOWETH-HAGE, Idaho (Independent)
DAVID VITTER, Louisiana
Kevin Binger, Staff Director
Daniel R. Moll, Deputy Staff Director
David A. Kass, Deputy Counsel and Parliamentarian
Lisa Smith Arafune, Chief Clerk
Phil Schiliro, Minority Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hearing held on January 24, 2000................................. 1
Statement of:
Campbell, Hon. Tom, a Representative in Congress from the
State of California........................................ 39
Lunev, Stanislav, former GRU Officer, author of ``Through the
Eyes of the Enemy''; ; and Peter Vincent Pry, former
employee of the Central Intelligence Agency, author of
``War Scare''.............................................. 59
Weldon, Hon. Curt, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Pennsylvania...................................... 11
Letters, statements, et cetera, submitted for the record by:
Burton, Hon. Dan, a Representative in Congress from the State
of Indiana, prepared statement of.......................... 6
Campbell, Hon. Tom, a Representative in Congress from the
State of California, series of letters requesting
investigations............................................. 43
Green, William, California State University--San Bernadino,
Naval Reserves Intelligence Officer, prepared statement of. 100
Lunev, Stanislav, former GRU Officer, author of ``Through the
Eyes of the Enemy'', prepared statement of................. 61
Pry, Peter Vincent, former employee of the Central
Intelligence Agency, author of ``War Scare'', prepared
statement of............................................... 74
Weldon, Hon. Curt, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Pennsylvania:
Article entitled, ``The Employment of Special Task Forces
Under Contemproty Conditions''......................... 32
Partial transcript of October 26, 1999 hearing........... 16
Partial transcript of September 14, 1999 press conference 20
RUSSIAN THREATS TO UNITED STATES SECURITY IN THE POST-COLD WAR ERA
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MONDAY, JANUARY 24, 2000
House of Representatives,
Committee on Government Reform,
Los Angeles, CA.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in
the Los Angeles Metropolitan Transportation Authority
Boardroom, 3rd floor, One Gateway Plaza, Los Angeles, CA, Hon.
Dan Burton (chairman of the committee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Burton and Scarborough.
Staff present: Daniel R. Moll, deputy staff director; Lisa
Smith Arafune, chief clerk; Mildred Webber and Caroline Katzin,
professional staff members; and Michael Yeager, minority senior
oversight counsel.
Mr. Burton. Good morning. A quorum being present, the
Committee on Government Reform will come to order. I ask
unanimous consent that all Members' and witnesses' written
opening statements be included in the record. And without
objection so ordered. I ask unanimous consent that all
articles, exhibits, and extraneous or tabular material referred
to be included in the record. Without objection so ordered.
It's been a little more than 10 years since the Berlin Wall
came tumbling down. We've been through eras of Glasnost and
Perestroika in Russia. We've seen economic reforms come and go
and we've watched the Russian economy come close to collapsing.
The conventional wisdom since the end of the cold war has
been that the Russian threat to our national security has
evaporated. Some people have gone so far as to say that Russia
is now our ally. The purpose of this hearing is to examine that
question. Is Russia still a threat to United States interests?
Is Russia still an adversary?
I'm very glad that we're able to hold this session here in
Los Angeles today. We hold a lot of hearings in Washington, DC.
Some of them get covered by the news media; some don't. A lot
of what we do in the Capital never gets out beyond the
Washington beltway. So when we have a recess period, I think
it's a good thing to get out of Washington and give people and
local media in other parts of the country some exposure to the
congressional process and the issues that are important.
Two weeks ago we held a field hearing in Miami about
international drug trafficking. We've held field hearings in my
home town of Indianapolis. One of our subcommittees held a
field hearing in New York on health care not too long ago. So I
think it's good for the committee and good for the people we
represent to do this once in a while.
One of the problems with doing field hearings is that not
many members of the committee can attend. The 44 members of
this committee are from all over the country, and we always
have a lot of commitments. So you won't see many members of the
committee here today. However, that doesn't take anything away
from the importance of this subject at hand. National security
and our relationship with Russia are very important issues. By
holding this hearing, we're creating a permanent record that
every committee member will be able to review. And I want to
particularly thank Representative Scarborough who came all the
way from Florida to be with us today as well as Congressman
Curt Weldon who's from Pennsylvania. Of course Mr. Campbell is
here from California, and we appreciate his attendance as well.
This is an issue we're going to continue to look at down the
road. So I want to thank all of today's witnesses for being
here and participating.
Now returning to the question at hand: Is Russia still a
threat? One thing we know is that Russia is still conducting
espionage against the United States. A lot of people in
Washington were shocked when they picked up their newspapers
about a month ago and discovered that a Russian spy had bugged
the State Department. A spy who is stationed at the Russian
Embassy had planted a tiny listening device in a chair in the
conference room. It was right down the hall from the Secretary
of State's office. The FBI caught him red-handed sitting in his
car outside the State Department trying to listen in on a
meeting. Nobody has any idea how long that bug was there or
what the Russians might have learned. Security is so lax at the
State Department that they couldn't tell you today if there are
any other listening devices in the building. They're sweeping
them right now.
One of our witnesses today is a former Russian intelligence
agent, Colonel Stanivlav Lunev. He is the highest ranking GRU
officer ever to defect to the United States. The GRU is
Russia's premiere military intelligence agency. Colonel Lunev
is in the witness protection program and special arrangements
have been made to conceal his identity. So I apologize to the
media who's here, we'll have to have him come in and be covered
up so that his identity is maintained so he won't be in any
jeopardy.
Mr. Lunev worked out of the Russian Embassy in Washington
for 3\1/2\ years. I had a chance to read Colonel Lunev's
testimony when he was before Congressman Weldon's subcommittee
in 1998. He said, ``I can say to you very openly and very
firmly that Russian intelligence activity against the United
States is much more active than it was in the time of the
former Soviet Union's existence. It's more active today than it
was then.'' That was a year and a half before the State
Department incident. It looks to me like Colonel Lunev knows
what he's talking about. It makes me wonder if there are more
bugs in more conference rooms waiting to be discovered.
It's not really surprising that Russia is still actively
spying on us. But how does the Russian Government view us? Have
their views changed? Do they consider us a friend or an enemy?
They just produced a new national security doctrine. It was
signed by President Putin this month. According to one scholar
it, ``adopts a tone far more aggressively anti-Western than in
the 1997 version.'' The document blames the United States and
NATO for trying to dominate the world and states that this is a
grave threat to Russian security. So it's very clear that the
Russian Government at the highest level still sees us, the
United States, as a threat and an enemy.
I recently read a quote from former CIA Director John
Deutch. He was testifying in 1998. Here's what he said:
Russia continues to be our top security concern, even
without the adversarial relationship of the cold war. Russia
still possesses 20,000-plus nuclear weapons. Wide-spread
corruption and the absence of honest and accountable internal
governmental administrative functions threatens Russia's slow
and erratic evolution toward democracy.
One of our witnesses today is Dr. Peter Pry. He was a CIA
analyst for many years and he recently wrote a book, ``War
Scare: Russia and America on the Nuclear Brink.'' Dr. Pry
states that the Russian military and intelligence agencies
still take a very hostile view toward the United States. He
states that decisionmakers in those agencies still consider us
their foremost adversary and that this paranoia is fueled by
the growing disparity between our economy and their economy and
between our defense capabilities and theirs.
That brings me to one of the issues I'd really like to
focus on today. According to Colonel Lunev, a key component of
Russia's strategy against the West for decades has been
sabotage and assassination. In his previous testimony, he
stated that one of his jobs at the Russia Embassy was to
collect information about elected leaders in this country. This
information would be used to assassinate them in a time of war
or crisis.
Another of Colonel Lunev's jobs was to scout out sites
where weapons or explosives could be prepositioned. From time
to time he would travel to the Shenandoah Valley to photograph
areas where ``dead drops'' would be established. Weapons would
be placed in these dead drop areas so that in times of crisis
Russian agents could come into the country to commit sabotage
against power plants, military bases, and communications
facilities.
According to Colonel Lunev, part of the Soviet's plan
called for the use of, ``portable tactical nuclear devices,''
to be used to commit sabotage against highly protected targets.
If has now been widely reported that the Soviet Union
manufactured portable briefcase-size nuclear devices that
cannot all be accounted for.
Were conventional or nuclear weapons prepositioned in the
United States? Colonel Lunev doesn't know if the sites he
identified were ever used. However, a second Russian defector
says drop sites were established all over the United States and
Western Europe. Vasili Mitrokhin was an archivist for the KGB.
When he defected to the West he brought with him pages and
pages of handwritten notes about KGB activities. He says that
for decades the Soviet Union deployed sabotage and intelligence
groups whose mission it was to commit assassinations or acts of
sabotage in times of crisis or impending war.
In his book, ``The Sword and the Shield,'' he states that
drop sites for explosives were scattered all over Western
Europe and the United States. They contained everything from
communications equipment to handguns to explosives. At one
point in his book, he states that a standard arms package to be
placed in a drop site would include mines, explosive charges,
fuses, and detonators.
Mr. Mitrokhin brought information on the exact locations of
several sites in Europe, in Belgium, and Switzerland. Local
police found these sites exactly where Mitrokhin said they
would be. That's significant because a lot of people tried to
pooh-pooh what we're talking about here today but several sites
have been located in Europe. They were booby-trapped with
explosives. The bombs had to be set off with water cannons
before the caches could be opened. Mr. Mitrokhin states that
many drop sites were established here in the United States.
However, he was not able to smuggle out the locations. He knows
that one site was established in Brainerd, MN.
In his book, he also mentions the possibility of drop sites
in New York, Pennsylvania, and Texas. However, their locations
are still a secret. Some people have asked why we're holding
this hearing here in Los Angeles, CA. Well, I had a chance to
review the hearing transcript from Congressman Weldon's
subcommittee on this same subject. It's my understanding that
there are many potential targets for Russian sabotage here in
California. It's my understanding that Mr. Mitrokhin mentioned
California's harbors and naval facilities as primary targets.
California is the most populous State in the Nation. If there
are hidden caches of explosives in this State, it's very
dangerous and very important that we find out where they are.
That's something that the people ought to be informed about.
That's why we're here.
The key questions before us now are where are these drop
sites? Do they still exist? What's in them? Were any of them
ever used to store portable nuclear devices as alleged by
Colonel Lunev? If there are Russian arms caches hidden around
the country with explosives and booby traps, this is a very
dangerous situation. One of the things we want to find out
today is if the administration has done anything to find out
where these sites are or if they still exist.
And I want to say something that's very important. The
State Department of the United States was asked by all of the
witnesses today, from the Congress, and myself on numerous
occasions to testify, to send anybody here to testify. And
Madeline Albright and the State Department chose to ignore us.
Mr. Campbell, Mr. Weldon, myself, and many others on both the
Democrat and Republican sides have written to the
administration and to the State Department on numerous
occasions. They will not even respond about this subject and I
think that's deplorable.
If there's a threat to the United States because of hidden
sites, then by golly the State Department ought to be telling
us what they're doing to deal with that problem and they're not
even answering Members of Congress. And I intend to force them
to come before the Congress if they don't start responding very
quickly, and I'll do that by subpoenaing them.
My colleagues, Congressman Weldon and Congressman Campbell,
also have tried to get answers from the administration. They've
written to the Defense Department Secretary Cohen and to
Secretary Albright and they've also received no response. We've
asked the FBI and the CIA to testify here today so we can try
to find out what's being done. I wish they could testify in
open session because I know there is more and more concern here
in California and around the country about these possible sites
since these books have been published. However, their testimony
is secret. It's classified.
After our first two panels, we'll hear from the FBI and CIA
in closed session. Right now, the security people are sweeping
an adjoining room so we can go in there and make sure what is
said is kept confidential. I appreciate that our witnesses from
these two agencies are here today, and I look forward to
hearing their testimony. I also want to say that I really
regret that the State Department isn't here. Once again, my
staff and everybody else has tried to get them here; and they
just jump through hoops to not have to testify.
Madeleine Albright is going to be testifying before the
International Relations Committee in about 2 weeks. And she
will answer questions about these issues, or she'll have to
duck them in public. Congressman Weldon has worked harder on
this issue than anyone in Congress. Congressman Campbell has
been working very hard to get answers from the administration
on behalf of California and his constituents. And I
congratulate both of you for being here and for your hard work.
I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here today
including Mr. DeSarno from the FBI. Mr. DeSarno testified
before our committee back in 1998 when he was working on the
campaign fundraising task force. He was very forthright then.
I'm sure he'll be forthright today. He's a good man. We welcome
him back. So we're glad to have him. And we're welcoming also
Dr. William Green from Cal State University in San Bernadino
who is an expert on Russia and United States policy. I look
forward to hearing from all of you.
I want to say one more thing. Congressman Waxman who
represents this area couldn't be with us today. He said he had
a previous commitment. Because this issue is important, I'm
disappointed that he couldn't be here. I hope that he'll take a
hard look at the issues that are going to be raised today
because not only do they concern all of California but in
particular since Los Angeles is such a huge population area and
he represents a large part of that, he should be very concerned
about it. And I'm sure once he hears all these issues, he will
be more concerned. He does have one of his chief staff
lieutenants here, and we appreciate his presence.
And with that, my colleague from Florida, who flew all the
way out here, I appreciate him being here.
[The prepared statement of Hon. Dan Burton follows:]
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[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T6968.004
Mr. Burton. Do you have an opening statement, Mr.
Scarborough?
Mr. Scarborough. No. I'll just be brief, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you for holding this hearing. I certainly thank
Congressman Campbell for being here and the leadership he's
shown in this very important issue, not only to all Americans
but again to California specifically. I think of all the people
that have come before our committees and I think of all the
people that have come before the Armed Services Committee, of
which I'm also a member, I think most everybody understands
that the battles of the 21st century will not be fought on
battlefields in Europe or in Asia but for Americans, we may
find them being fought here at home. And certainly if that's
the case, then California, specifically Los Angeles, CA, will
be on the front lines in battles that involve terrorism, be it
nuclear, chemical, or biological. That's why again I thank you
for your leadership.
I've got to echo the sentiments of our chairman that I
believe unfortunately we have a President, we have a State
Department, and we have a foreign policy apparatus in
Washington and on both sides of the United States both
Republicans and Democrats that do not understand the scope of
the danger facing all Americans. And a great example is again
Dr. Pry's book, ``War Scare.'' In it he tells a very, very
interesting story.
And I think it's very telling about how the administration
right now has been lulled to sleep by the hope that somehow the
Russians have changed. It's sort of--it's not the new Nixon;
it's the new Russians. And that somehow they've undergone this
remarkable transformation. And there's a story in here how in
1996 while NATO was conducting military exercises in the North
Sea, the Russians were so alarmed that they got their northern
fleet out. It was a very confrontational moment in American
history and in Russian history. At the same time, Brothers to
the Rescue planes were shot down by Cuba.
And so in the middle of this great international crisis,
the White House picked up the red phone to speak to the
Russians and to try to defuse this situation. But what were
they talking about? They were talking about poultry exports. It
seems that the Russians were concerned by the fact that these
maneuvers were going on and they did a lot of different things,
but the only thing that caught the White House's attention was
that poultry exports from Russia to America would be cut and
likewise going the other way because of Tyson Foods poultry
plants in Arkansas.
So they were focusing on chickens and using the red phone
for this chicken crisis instead of understanding that the two
countries were really on the brink of some very dangerous,
dangerous times. And that continues. But, again, the State
Department isn't focused. The White House isn't focused on it.
They're only concerned about economic considerations while
foreign policy considerations have been thrown out the window.
The cold war as we knew it from 1947 to 1991 may be over,
but we are now in a period that's even more volatile and more
frightening. And Curt Weldon has been a champion on this issue
for some time. I was at a meeting with him earlier this month.
I'll tell you after about 20 minutes of talking to him, I
became ever increasingly concerned. So I look forward to his
testimony. I look forward to the testimony also of all these
other witnesses.
Again, I think what's telling is that we have interesting
information from Dr. Pry's book and others, a lot of what
you're going to be hearing from Curt Weldon and others isn't
just from American scholars or American researchers, it
actually comes from Russians themselves. As Curt Weldon says,
from the mouths of Russians themselves. So we are in a
frightening time.
And, Mr. Chairman, again, I thank you for conducting this
hearing. I think it's very important. And I hope for the safety
of citizens in Los Angeles and California and across this
country that our administration and that Democrats and
Republicans in Washington, DC, will start to focus on the very
real threat that's being posed right now by mere anarchic
conditions in Russia.
Thank you. Yield back my time.
Mr. Burton. Thank you, Chairman Scarborough. We'll now hear
an opening statement from Congressman Weldon of Pennsylvania.
STATEMENT OF HON. CURT WELDON, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS
FROM THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA
Mr. Weldon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you
for holding this hearing, and I want to thank Mr. Scarborough
for being here and Mr. Campbell for his untiring efforts to get
this administration to come clean with the American people
about an issue that I think is vitally important.
Mr. Chairman, at the outset let me state that I think I'm
in an unusual position. I am a friend of the Russian people. My
undergraduate degree, as you know, is in Russian studies. I
speak the language. I've been there almost 20 times. For the
past 6 years since I formed the Duma-Congress relationship, I
have chaired an ongoing relationship with members of all the
Russian political factions. I know over 150 Duma members
personally. I have many friends who serve in the Russian
Government.
My statements today are not to try to paint Russia into a
corner. There are people there who want Russia to continue with
reforms. But we need to understand the reality of what has
happened in the former Soviet Union and what continues today.
Because there are others in that country that don't want good
relations with us and that have other intentions.
I think secondarily I would mention that I think what we're
going to look at today is what I would call an example of the
failed policies of this administration for 8 years. We have
been so enamored with a Bill Clinton to Boris Yeltsin
relationship, with an Al Gore to Viktor Chernomyrdin
relationship that whenever something would appear to surface
that would appear to perhaps undermine Yeltsin or Chernomyrdin,
he would pretend it didn't happen whether it was a theft of IMF
dollars, whether it was abuse and insider trading in Russia,
whether it was arms control treaty violations that we saw time
and again and never called the Russians on, or whether it was
the lasering of the eyes of one of our career Navy intelligence
officers Jack Daly. There were consistent efforts to hide
reality. The evidence of Vice President Gore being given a
brief by the CIA that linked Viktor Chernomyrdin to organized
crime within the petrol chemical industry and the Vice
President writing the word ``bullshit'' across the front of it
and sending it back to the CIA.
The administration has had a consistent pattern of not
wanting anything to surface that might cause the perception of
a problem or a real problem in our relationship with Russia.
And I'm convinced that's what you have in the example. And I'm
not going to give you facts from some Republican radical right
think tank. I'm not going to give you comments of the far right
of my party, our party. I'm not going to give you facts from
people who want to attack Russia. I'm going to give you a very
logical and methodical outline of what Russians have said on
the public record. And I want this issue to be judged on what
Russians have said in the public realm, many before our
Congress, because that's the story today. It is what Russians
have said that has occurred and what we ought to be concerned
with.
Mr. Chairman, in May 1997--and everything I'm going to say,
Mr. Chairman, has been witnessed in a bipartisan manner.
Nothing that I am going to talk about was witnessed by
Republicans alone. And my entire efforts in this area have been
totally bipartisan. So for those who would say this is a
Republican witch-hunt, I challenge them to come forward. I'll
debate them, and I'll give them the factual information that
will deny that allegation.
May 30, 1997, I led a bipartisan delegation to Moscow. One
of meetings we had scheduled was with then General Alexander
Lebed, currently the Governor of Krasnoyarsk. General Lebed, as
you know, was the top defense advisor to Yeltsin. At the
meeting, Lebed for the first time revealed that one of his
responsibilities when he worked for Yeltsin was to account for
132 suitcase-size nuclear devices. He said he could not find
them. He said he could locate only 48. Now, Democrats and
Republicans with me said to him in this private meeting, well,
where are the rest, General? He said, I have no idea; they
could have been destroyed; they could be secure; or they could
have been put on the black market for the highest bidder.
Because the General is making a point to us that the
instability in the Russian military was causing military
officers to sell technology around the world.
Now, Mr. Chairman, we did not have a press conference
following that event. So this was not an opportunity for Lebed
to toot his own horn. In fact, the only way the media found out
about that allegation was that we filed my trip report 2 months
later, and we do as a requirement of the Congress. A producer
for 20/20 picked up on the story, Leslie Coburn. She called me;
and she said, Congressman, did Lebed really say this? I said
absolutely. She said do you think he would say it on national
TV? I said you will have to ask him. She went to Moscow. 20/20
interviewed Lebed; they interviewed me and both of us with a
lead story in September 1997 on the national media where he
again said in his own words, that Russia had, in fact, produced
these small atomic demolition munitions and could not account
for all of them.
What was the response of the Russian Government? They
denied they ever produced them. The minister of foreign affairs
for Russia publicly said Lebed is crazy; he doesn't know what
he's talking about; he's trying to gain popularity. But even
worse than that, Mr. Chairman, was that at a press conference
in the Pentagon reflecting what I just talked about with this
administration the question was asked of Ken Bacon's staff what
do you make of the allegations by Lebed. And this was the
response of our government: We have no reason to doubt what the
Russian Government is saying.
So then, Mr. Chairman, on October 2, 1997, I brought over
Dr. Alexei Yablikov. Dr. Yablikov is one of the most reknown
environmentalists in all of Russia. He was initially part of
Yeltsin's cabinet; was a member of the security council; and is
an expert on environmental issues, ecological issues, and
atomic energy issues. He heads a think tank. He's a member of
the Academy of Sciences in Moscow today.
I had Alexei Yablikov testify before my committee open
session in Washington. And this is what he said. He said, I
know that General Lebed was correct. These devices were built.
He said on the record--and you can check the transcript--he
said I know colleagues of mine who worked on these devices. And
you need to understand, America, he didn't just build these for
the Ministry of Defense, they also built these for the KGB to
be used for external operations.
So now I have a retired two star general given the highest
award that Russia gives, the Hero of Russia award, supported by
Dr. Alexei Yablikov saying publicly that Russia has, in fact,
built these devices and that we better work with Russia to find
out where they are and if, in fact, they're capable of being
sold abroad.
Mr. Chairman, even though our government denied that they
should pursue this issue, I traveled to Moscow that December
and, as I frequently do, met with the defense ministers of
Russia, Defense Minister Sergeyev, also a retired general. For
the first half hour of my meeting, I talked about positive
proactive things that I was doing to help Russia, to help the
people, to help the military with housing, to help the problem
of nuclear waste. And then I said, but General, for you to
continue to have me help you and be Russia's friend you have to
be candid with me. What's the story of the small atomic
demolition munitions. This is what the defense minister from
Russia said to me: ``Congressman, we did build those devices
just as you built them during the cold war. We are aware that
you destroyed all of yours. And I submit to you that we will
have all of our small atomic demolition munitions destroyed by
the year 2000.''
So here we have a Russian general saying that they were
lost or not being able to be accounted for, we have a leading
environmental activist from Russia verifying his story, and we
have our government publicly going along with the Russian
Government's total denial they had ever built them.
And finally the defense ministry of Russia admitted to me
publicly, yes we built them and yes, we'll have them all
destroyed by this year.
The following year, Mr. Chairman, March 19, 1998, I invited
General Alexander Lebed to Washington. He testified before my
committee. Again he was under terrible pressure from the
Russian Government. Again he said--he stood by his claims that
these devices were unaccounted for and that we in America
should be troubled because those who want to harm us are the
ones that those generals and admirals who are disgruntled would
sell those devices to.
In August of that same year, Mr. Chairman, August the 4th,
I invited Stanislav Lunev to come before my committee. As you
know, he's in the witness protection program jointly
administered by, I believe, the FBI and the CIA. And he's under
an assumed name. I had him come in behind a curtain with a ski
mask on. I had him testify. And I will not go through what he's
going to say today but he's going to tell you as the highest
ranking GRU defector in the history of the Soviet Union or
Russia, his job when he worked under cover as a TASS
correspondent at the Soviet Embassy in Washington was to locate
sites where materials could be dropped. And, in fact, that's an
issue I know this committee is going to explore with him.
So now we have the highest ranking GRU defector reinforcing
the possibility of what both Lebed and Yablikov said and, in
fact, saying it was his understanding that these drops could
include small atomic demolition munitions as well as the
possibility of other September or August of this past year,
August 1999, Dr. Christopher Andrew published his book that you
referred to called, ``The KGB, the Sword and the Shield, the
Mitrokhin Files.'' This book, as you pointed out, is based on
the 8 years of collecting Mitrokhin's handwritten notes about
secret KGB files.
I met with Dr. Christopher Andrew from Cambridge University
at a private dinner in September of last year. I asked him to
testify before my committee which he did in October. Dr. Andrew
flew over from London and he brought with him Oleg Gordievsky.
Gordievsky is the highest ranking ever KGB defector from
Russia. He was the station desk chief for the Soviet KGB in
London. He currently is in a witness protection program in
Great Britain. The two of them testified before my committee,
Mr. Chairman. And what did they say? They said in the Mitrokhin
files one of the things Mitrokhin documented was a deliberate
plan by the KGB to preposition military caches of weapons,
hardware, and devices in Europe and in North America. These
devices were intended to be used by agents who would be
prepositioned in our country to blow up dams, bridges, ports,
to cause significant unrest inside of our territory.
When I asked Dr. Andrew whether or not there were specific
sites named in the United States, he said Mitrokhin only had
time to take notes on a sampling of the kinds of cases the KGB
was working on. And he said he wasn't interested in documenting
every single location of every single device that the KGB had
put forward. Because there are literally hundreds of them all
over the world. He did document four sites so that no one could
question the authenticity of what he was saying, it just
happens that one of those sites was in Switzerland and three
were in Belgium.
Last year, Mr. Chairman, the Swiss went to the exact site
that he identified, there are photographs of that site in this
book and right there at the exact spot with a booby-trapped
bomb that could kill a human being and, in fact, caused the
Swiss Government to issue a warning to all of its citizens
about that type of location, they found exactly what Mitrokhin
said would be there. Devices that the Russians had
prepositioned during the Soviet era.
In Belgium, at all three sites the Belgium intelligence
service found the exact same kinds of capability. Now, were
there weapons of mass destruction there? No. Were there
military hardware and transmission and communications
equipment? Yes. Were they booby trapped? The one in
Switzerland, yes.
In the Mitrokhin files, he documents that there are States
in the United States where these devices were prepositioned.
Specifically mentioned in the files are California,
Pennsylvania, New York, Montana, Minnesota, Texas. And he
further states that they are near pipelines. They are near
ports. They are near major public infrastructure locations. All
of this is in the KGB files. Now, this is not the main content
of this book. Because the KGB files were expansive. Only a very
small portion of this book dealt with the location of these
devices. So for those who say come forward and give us one, we
can't. But when I had Dr. Andrew who's, by the way, a Russian
security and intelligence expert at Cambridge, one of the
leading tenured professors at Cambridge University so much so
that when Mitrokhin received his ability to live in England by
the British intelligence service and the British Government,
they went to Cambridge and they went to Dr. Andrew and they
said would you work with Mitrokhin and help to prepare these
files in an organized way. That's why the book came out.
So the British intelligence trusted Christopher Andrew to
work Mitrokhin. When Mitrokhin--or when Christopher Andrew and
Gordievsky testified before my committee, again this is in the
public record, they said that there is no doubt in their mind
that there are locations today, no doubt in their minds, all
over the United States, where Soviet military equipment is
stored today. No doubt. Now, they didn't say that there is a
high degree of probability of a nuclear device, but they left
the door open. They left the door open. In fact, I'll submit
the transcript which refers to that for the record which people
can look at in the words again of a Russian, Mitrokhin--I mean
Gordievsky and Mitrokhin and Dr. Christopher Andrew.
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Mr. Weldon. Mr. Chairman before that hearing, I went to our
own agencies. I called Louis Freeh of the FBI who I have the
highest respect for. I think he has absolutely impeccable
credentials. As you know and I think as you feel, he is the one
bright star in this administration who shines above all others.
I said, Director Freeh, can you send a team over that I can
talk to before I have the hearing; and he did. He sent over
three people. One of whom was told--and I told him I was going
to say what was discussed at that meeting so they knew that it
was not being held in a classified way.
I said I want to ask you the question, one, do you consider
the Mitrokhin files to be credible. And they said, absolutely.
They are totally credible.
So anyone that would say this is some outlandish claim
that's not been verified, I would ask them to talk to the FBI
about that and the SIS service in Great Britain.
No. 2, I said, have you attempted to find devices where the
States and sites are listed even though it's vague and they
said, yes, but we don't have much to go on. You know, there are
thousands of miles of pipeline in Texas. There are tons of
ports installations in California. We just don't know where to
look without the specific locations.
So then I got to the third question: Has our government
asked the Russian Government for the specific locations? And
the answer was no, our government has not asked the Russian
Government.
Now, Mr. Chairman, also for the record I would like to
submit a transcript of a press conference held at the Pentagon
on September 15, 1999. In this transcript I'm going to quote
Admiral Quigley--Rear Admiral Quigley is being asked questions
by the media about the Mitrokhin files, about the claims in it.
Admiral Quigley is asked if he's aware of the book and the
allegations. He says, yes, we're aware of it. They said, do you
have any interest in actually going after some of these caches?
He says not that I'm aware of, no. Have you approached the
Russians on this, about whether or not they've done this? His
answer, no, no we have not.
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Mr. Weldon. So in the public domain now we have two Federal
agencies, the Defense Department and the FBI stating that this
administration--and I don't think it should be the
responsibility of the FBI or the Defense Department to ask the
Russians, but both of them saying publicly, this administration
hasn't asked the question.
Mr. Chairman, on January--or on October 22, and you have
this in your files, I drafted a letter which was signed by
myself and Jim Oberstar. Jim Oberstar is not exactly considered
a wacko Member of the Congress. He is one of the most stable
Democrats in the House. He's the ranking Democrat on the public
works committee. Jim Oberstar and I signed this letter to
Madeleine Albright saying have you asked the question of the
Russians; and if you did, what was the response; and if you
haven't asked the question, why haven't you. Today is January,
what, the 22nd. No response from the administration, Mr.
Chairman. Nothing.
Mr. Chairman, also in October of last year, I introduced
legislation. And I just didn't go get Republican sponsors, Mr.
Chairman, my bill which is H. Res. 380 which I have before you
has 16 Republican sponsors and 16 Democrat sponsors. This is a
bipartisan effort. And if any Member of Congress attempts to
say this is partisan, or if the media tries to spin this as
partisan I will refute it every step of the way. Sixteen
Democrats and 16 Republicans cosponsored this bill, demanding
that this administration come clean with the American people.
Mr. Chairman, up until this date we have no new
information. Nothing. We have the State Department silent with
their lips closed. My own hunch is when the FBI was told by the
SIS back in 1992 and 1993 about the Mitrokhin files, Yeltsin
was on the rise. All of us wanted Yeltsin to succeed. But this
administration because of its special focus on Yeltsin and
Clinton didn't want anything to surface that would perhaps call
into question Yeltsin's leadership or what Soviet and Russia's
intents were. So we didn't ask the question. And now 8 years
later, they are between a rock and a hard place. In my opinion,
my best guess is they didn't ask the question then, they
haven't asked the question, and they're embarrassed to come
forward and admit that today.
Now one final thought, Mr. Chairman. For those who would
say that this is Russia of the past, I think by and large this
kind of activity was in the former Soviet Union. But as someone
who studies Russia on a daily basis, who travels to Russia
frequently, and who knows the intricacies of the people in that
country, I want to read to you, Mr. Chairman, from an internal
Russian military publication dated July, August 1995.
Now Mr. Chairman, this is 3 years after the reforms of
Yeltsin. This is after we became enamored with Russia's success
which I'm very happy and support on a regular basis. In an
article in a publication that is briefed to the highest leaders
in the Russian military today--in fact the names of the people
on the editorial board are people like Kokoshin, they're people
like Kvashnin, the highest leaders in the Russian military. The
article written by Colonel Kadetov is entitled, ``The
Employment of Special Task Forces Under Contemporary
Conditions.'' In that article, Mr. Chairman, it says, that
Russia should look--and this is 1995, mind you, Russia should
look to have reconnaissance, commando, and other special
services equipped with compact nuclear ammunition, weapons,
mines, explosives, and other special means and equipment which
have substantially increased the capabilities of reconnaissance
and other special groups and detachments.
Further down in this article, Mr. Chairman, the bottom of
the page, 199, please bear with me on this statement.
Special task forces can be used not only in war, but also
in peace time during a period of threat. This refers to those
instances when armed confrontation between the sides has not
taken on the scale of war or when the extent of military
preparations by a potential enemy and a corresponding military
danger have reached such limits beyond which aggression can be
curbed only by taking preventative measures.
Mr. Chairman, this article goes into detail of Russia's
current political thought of prepositioning military equipment
including the possibility of nuclear devices on our soil. So
for anyone who wants to trivialize this, I say come on. Let's
have at it. I'm willing to use the words from Russians and from
Russian materials to document what's taking place.
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Mr. Weldon. I have two final things. I brought with me
devices for those who say can't happen. This is an
accelerometer, and this is a gyroscope. These have Russian
markings on them. They were clipped off of Russian SSN 19 long-
range missiles that were on Russian submarines that could hit
the continental United States because of their range. These
devices are prohibited from being exported. We caught the
Russians transferring these to Iraq not once, not twice, but
three times. We have more than one set. In fact, the number is
classified but it's well over 100 sets of these devices. These
were being transferred by Russia in direct violation of an arms
control regime called the missile technology control regime.
When I was in Moscow the month after the Post reported the
story, I asked our Ambassador at the time, Tom Pickering, what
was the Russian response when you asked them about this
transfer, he said, I haven't asked them yet. I said why haven't
you asked them? That would be a violation of the MTCR. He said
that's got to come from Washington, from the State Department,
from the White House.
I wrote to President Clinton, Mr. Chairman. He wrote me
back in March. Dear Congressman Weldon, what you're saying is
of great concern to us. We read the Post story. And if it's
true, you're right, it's a violation of the MTCR and we will
take aggressive steps. But he went on to say we don't have any
evidence.
Mr. Chairman, I give you the evidence. I know that agencies
of this government have had the evidence since before the
President wrote that letter. That's the problem that we're
currently confronting. We don't have any credibility with the
Russians, Mr. Chairman. They don't respect us because of the
dishrag policy of this administration which wants to pretend
that things aren't what they are. And that doesn't mean we have
to back Russia into a corner. It means we have to deal with
them from a position of strength, consistency and candor.
One final item if I might approach the Chair. I have a
small atomic demolition device I would like to bring up for
you.
Mr. Burton. This is a mock-up, folks. Now, I hope that
Congressman Weldon will explain who made this mock-up.
Mr. Weldon. Yes, I will. This device was made by a former
CIA agent and it was made to the specifications that are in the
public record and available that the Soviet Union would use to
design a small atomic demolition munitions I have just
documented General Sergeyev has admitted that they built. So
these specs are not what our Department of Defense tried to
trivialize, these are built to the specs of the former Soviet
Union.
This is a device that would be typical of a 1 to 10 kiloton
device. To give you a comparison, Hiroshima was about 15 to 16
kilotons. This would wipe out downtown L.A., would wipe out the
hotel where I'm staying, where we're all staying, and all the
buildings around. If you put this kind of a device in a
stadium, it would kill 50,000 to 75,000 people. This device can
be carried by one person. This is the device. We're talking
about a uranium-fired and uranium-fueled device that would
basically be encased inside of the metal pipe that would have
the appropriate activation devices along with it. And the
design is actually contained in the top of the briefcase.
Now, do we think that these devices are in fact buried in
the United States? We have no way of doing that. But this is
exactly what the Soviets had in mind. And according to the
specs available in the public domain which we can provide for
the record, Dr. Pry can assist in that effort, this is what the
Soviet Union can't locate.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Burton. Thank you for that outstanding presentation.
Now if anybody's hair is not gray, we'll turn to our
colleague from California, Mr. Campbell, for an opening
statement.
STATEMENT OF HON. TOM CAMPBELL, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS
FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
Mr. Campbell. Mr. Chairman, I thank you for bringing these
hearings to California. You are to be complimented for
realizing the importance of the issue and bringing it out to
the people. So it's not just within the Washington context. My
colleague from Pennsylvania, Curt Weldon, has a remarkable
record of public service and nothing more important than what
he's done in this field. It was because of his work that I
became aware of the potential difficulties with the
prepositioning of communications or weapons systems, whichever,
because the communications systems could be booby trapped. And
I, in my effort, have tried to bring the question home to
California: Is there a risk? That was my question, which I hope
we can get some beginnings of answers to, if not from the
administration then possibly from witnesses.
The testimony that has been given in Curt Weldon's
subcommittee on October 26 of last year builds the case. And
here's the two large routes toward the conclusion that there
are--is a high likelihood of prepositioning of communications
or weapons in the State of California for two reasons. One
because the sources are likely to be coming across the border
at least in part by land, which is going to implicate our
States that are on the land border; and second, that there are
targets that were identified by these witnesses as likely
targets which were located in California. And those are the two
different streams that flow into this river of doubt as to
whether there is a risk to the people of California.
Obviously, and I say this to a chairman from Indiana, all
of us are concerned. No matter where it is, that's a given. But
I wanted at least in this opening statement to focus a bit as
to why it was so important for you to hold these hearings here
and hopefully to get some attention to this very realistic and
serious risk.
The possibility, by the way, could be simply a booby-
trapped communications device. Indeed in my testimony I'm just
going to stick with that example. Suppose that's all we were
talking about. Mr. Chairman, you know we spend money because
you and I serve on the International Relations Committee
together, we spend money in Yugoslavia, we spend money in
Africa, Zimbabwe where I recently visited, on demining. I'm
glad that we do because some child might come across a mine in
an area where it had been planted years before. This seems to
me the minimum that we should do for our own people, to find
out if there is a booby-trapped device.
All right. I mentioned the two streams flowing into the
river. On the first Professor Hill's testimony--excuse me,
Andrews' testimony on October 26, one method, perhaps the main
method of bringing arms and radio equipment into Western
countries was via Soviet diplomatic bags. In the case of the
United States, however, there are indications in KGB files that
some of the equipment was smuggled across the Mexican and
Canadian borders. First reason to worry about California
because of our long border with Mexico.
Second, also from Professor Andrews' testimony, among the
chief sabotage targets across the United States-Mexican border
were military bases, missile sites, radar installations, and
the oil pipeline code named Stark which ran from El Paso in
Texas to Costa Mesa in California. Three sites in the
California coast were selected for DRG landings, that's an
acronym for the Russian word for these teams, that were
instructed to preposition material of this nature. Together
with large capacity caches in which to store mines, explosives,
detonators, and other sabotage material. Second stream flowing
into this river of doubt.
Third, from Mitrokhin's testimony himself and his quotation
in the 60 Minutes presentation, so this is Mitrokhin himself
speaking, the KGB plan went from the Mexican border in the
south to the 49th parallel, the Canadian border, in the north.
Andrew says, quoting Mitrokhin, Mitrokhin's most stunning
revelation is that these targets across the United States in a
KGB plan to knock out United States power supplies in case of a
war. That's from testimony that Andrew gave quoting Mitrokhin,
so it was not Mitrokhin himself, and I can correct myself,
October 26, 1999.
In Nightline's research, as you know they did a special
session on this, they pursued the Brainerd, MN possibility and
concluded that other caches do exist. This is testimony on that
program from some source they had. And I do not know whom. But
a source they had that was able to get into the Mitrokhin files
beyond what was disclosed into the Mitrokhin files in this
book. And that source, which was revealed on Nightline
identified Brainerd, MN.
My point about the danger to civilians is most clearly
demonstrated by this description of what happened in
Switzerland. From the book on the Mitrokhin files, late in
1998, the Swiss authorities began removing a radio cache in
woods near Bern identified by Mitrokhin. So I'll pause just for
a moment in the quote to say it's a radio cache. In and of
itself one might not think all that dangerous. One might think
well not a weapon. However, this radio cache which exploded
when fired on by a water cannon, a spokesman for the Federal
prosecutors office issued a warning that if any further caches
were discovered they should not be touched, ``anyone who tried
to move the container would have been killed.''
And the reference as well earlier is from page 365 of the
``Sword and the Shield'' and a reference from page 16, the
Mitrokhin notes reveal similar KGB arms and radio caches, some
of them booby trapped, scattered around much of Europe and
North America.
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Scarborough, that is the danger that I
care about, that all of us care about. And I particularly bring
it home to the situation here in California. It is likely
because of its source from across the border, and it is likely
because of the targets, for example that El Paso Costa Mesa
pipeline, the military installations that were referred to in
the Mitrokhin files.
Last, what have I done about it? I deserve nothing, no
notice at all except to the extent that I am taking what your
work and what Mr. Weldon's work has done and asking a question
you would for your own district in Indiana, you would for your
district in Florida: Is there a risk here? What can we do?
Let's find out. Accordingly, I wrote the Secretary of State
after I had convinced myself on the basis of the evidence from
the Weldon hearings, from the testimony that I've just read
that it was appropriate--that it was appropriate to inquire
because the risk to the people in my district or the people in
California was not trivial.
I wrote on December 6, Mr. Chairman, and I asked most
politely to Secretary Albright that she pursue this vigorously.
I received--I also sent a letter to Sandy Berger and I sent a
letter to Secretary of Defense Cohen. I received a reply--this
is December 6. I received a reply only from Secretary Cohen.
Secretary Cohen said, Thank you for your letter requesting
information about the location of Russian weapon caches within
the United States. I have asked the Undersecretary of Defense
for Policy, Mr. Walt Slocum, to promptly address this request;
and he will get back to you as soon as possible. With best
wishes, I am Secretary Bill Cohen.
Knowing of this hearing, Mr. Chairman, I want to emphasize
this because fairness is a very important characteristic in
anything as important as this. One must be careful in saying
this is a concern to all Democrats, Republicans alike.
I wrote again knowing of this hearing, and so I said to
Sandy Berger, Madeleine Albright, and Bill Cohen, in a letter
of January 13: On January 24, 2000, the House Committee on
Government Reform will be holding a field hearing in Los
Angeles on exactly this issue. I would be grateful if you would
respond to my letter prior to this hearing so that I may submit
the administration's possession in this matter to the committee
for the record.
Mr. Chairman, I received no response at all.
And I'm going to conclude now with a description of an
interchange for which you were present when we were both in the
International Relations Committee and Madeleine Albright,
Secretary Albright testified in this particular context it was
about the war in Yugoslavia. I think you'll remember, Mr.
Chairman, that I was very vigorous in trying to assert the role
of Congress in that matter that it was a war and that it should
not have been prosecuted without the approval of Congress as
per our Constitution. I asked Secretary Albright, Mrs.
Albright, are we at war with Yugoslavia? She said no. I said,
we're not at war? She said no. I said, what is it then? She
said it was armed conflict.
The next day she had her Assistant Secretary come up and I
asked her are we at war she said no we are in armed conflict. I
said, what's the difference between armed conflict or not just
armed conflict and war but armed conflict and hostilities
because hostilities is in the War Power Act. And she said, wait
a minute, I'll get the attorney for the State Department. She
then turned around and brought up the attorney for the State
Department who testified in essence that it was armed conflict
if the President said it was armed conflict; it was hostilities
if the President said it was hostilities.
This is circumlocution. This is a disservice to the high
Office of Secretary of State. And to fail to reply at all to
sincere inquiries relative to the safety of my and your
constituents is a disservice to the American public.
I thank you for holding these hearings, Mr. Chairman.
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Mr. Burton. Thank you, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Weldon. With the
consent of my colleague, Mr. Scarborough, we'll go with 10
minute rounds of questions. I'll give you 10 minutes. Let me--
can you set this for 10 minutes so that we--and we may go more
than one round depending on whether we cover everything.
I read the large part of the book, and one of the things
that struck me in addition to the nuclear devices being in
briefcases weighing about 60 pounds was that it was said that
they also made those devices in different forms. They could
make them in forms that looked like bricks or rocks or
something else. Did anybody ever express that to you that it
might just be a briefcase-type weapon?
Mr. Weldon. Yes, Mr. Chairman, that was expressed. And I
think if you ask that question of Mr. Lunev, you'll get his
personal response as to what he thought it could perhaps look
like. I think he'll elaborate on that. But there in fact were
``Spetsnaz'' training manuals that identify these kinds of
devices in a number of forms, not just the kind of formal
briefcase that I brought today, but that they could be placed
and be hidden and not known to be in fact what they were. So
your answer is yes, that there were other types of devices,
some larger, some smaller. And you know, the other added
dimension here is we talk about reducing arms repeatedly
between us and Russia. Russia has an overwhelming advantage to
us on tactical nuclear weapons. Tactical nukes. And they admit
that. And we admit that publicly. I mean, they have a huge
advantage over America on the number of tactical nukes none of
which are regulated by treaty by the way. Tactical nukes are
not very far away from what we're talking about with small
atomic demolition munitions, which you're saying and has been
said by Russian experts could, in fact, have been camouflaged.
Mr. Burton. I would like to followup on one thing that you
said in your opening statement you said that was it Yablikov?
Mr. Weldon. Alexei Yablikov.
Mr. Burton. Forgive me if I don't pronounce these names
correctly. He said, as I recall, that many of these devices
were for external use.
Mr. Weldon. He said that his colleagues and his peers who
were academic scientists and researchers told him they were
working on these devices in the Soviet era, that they were
being built not just for the Ministry of Defense but also for
the KGB. And the design of these devices was to be used
wherever Russia needed them both internally and externally.
Mr. Burton. So when they built these 132 nuclear devices,
the briefcase-like device that you showed me, they intended for
them to be used for internal civDOC>
[106th Congress House
well as external threats to the Soviet Union?
Mr. Weldon. Absolutely. In fact, there was an allegation
made by Dudayev in the first Chechen conflict that he had, in
fact, a small atomic demolition device, and if you read the
book One Point Safe by Andrew and Leslie Cockburn, which I have
asked the CIA to refute and they have not done that publicly,
there is a chapter dedicated to the United States taking that
charge so seriously that we sent agents to work with the
Russians to find out whether or not Dudayev did in fact have a
small atomic demolition device. That's how seriously we took
that allegation.
Mr. Burton. Now, they said that they were going to destroy
all of these 132 nuclear devices by the year 2000, but only 48
can be accounted for. That means, according to my mathematics,
about 84 are still unaccounted for.
Mr. Weldon. Well, again, Lebed was the top security adviser
to Yeltsin. So he had the full weight of the Presidency to go
out and find these devices. And he said--I mean, he gave us the
exact number, and he said they can only locate 48 and had no
idea where the rest were. It was the defense minister who told
me in the subsequent meeting in December after his government
had denied they ever built them that, yes, they would have them
all destroyed.
Mr. Chairman, I want to add one comment for the record
about Lebed's credibility. For those who might say, well, you
can't really trust what Lebed's saying; for those who study
Russia they know that when Yeltsin appointed Putin, he
interviewed three people for that position. Just 2 months ago,
one of the three people he interviewed was Aleksandr Lebed. So
for those who are going to try to take apart Lebed's
credibility, the Russian President just before he appointed
Putin as his successor interviewed Lebed, and I think that was
because the Chechen war went sour and Putin's credibility went
down, Lebed would be a credible alternative who had a strong
figure image in Russia.
Mr. Burton. We don't know how many sites there are or could
be in North America or Canada, but as the chief potential
adversary of the Soviet Union time conflict, it is logical to
assume that there would be numerous sites in the United States
and that there's a real possibility that if they were going to
export these nuclear devices for external use that they would
be placed here in the United States someplace.
Mr. Weldon. I would say scores and scores, if not hundreds
and hundreds, all over this country. They named a number of
States in the files that Mitrokhin was able to get documented.
Unfortunately, he didn't take the time to get the specific
locations.
You know--and I asked that question of Dr. Andrew, why
didn't Mitrokhin get the specific locations. He said,
Congressman, you have to understand. Mitrokhin's hatred of the
KGB was primarily because of what the KGB was doing to Russian
people, and that's where he went to extensive documentation and
the vast web of sympathizers that the Communist party had
outside of Russia, and that's what the bulk of this is about.
The location of these devices wasn't one of Mitrokhin's top
priorities. That wasn't what was of interest to him, but he did
copy down some of those files, but only in four of them went
down to the specific detail. Unfortunately, all of those four
sites were in Europe.
Mr. Burton. It also mentioned--in the book it was mentioned
that the Spetsnaz troops which are the premier, I guess it
would be equivalent to our Delta force troops or I don't know
what would be another analogy, but our top elite troops who are
capable of using all kinds of methods to kill people--that they
were getting dossiers on American leaders and politicians so
that in time of conflict they could eradicate them more or kill
them.
Mr. Weldon. Again, Lunev will testify to that. He testified
before my committee on that issue. In addition, Gordievsky, the
highest ranking KGB officer whoever defected, who was the
bureau chief in London, said the same thing. I think it's
important you keep reiterating, as you've been doing, as we've
been following through, these statements are from the mouths of
Russians. These are not----
Mr. Burton. They're not just low level. High level.
Mr. Weldon. These are the highest level officials in the
Russian intelligence service and the Russian military, some of
whom are still in Russia today, Mr. Chairman. Lebed is the
Governor of Krasnoyarsk, who was just interviewed for the top
job in the Russian Government.
Mr. Burton. Let me ask you one final question, and that
is--and I think this is extremely important for anybody who's
paying attention to this issue, as everybody ought to be. We
ought to have all 235 or 240 million Americans paying attention
to this issue, and that is, that you talked to the FBI and
other agencies of the government, you talked to Louis Freeh;
and they told you that nobody has asked the former Soviet Union
and the now Russian leadership any questions about these
possible sites in the United States. Nobody to your knowledge
has asked any questions about if these sites exist and where
they exist.
Mr. Weldon. Two Federal agencies--it wasn't Louis Freeh
himself. The FBI said to me personally and the Defense
Department said publicly in a press conference that we have not
yet asked the Russians the questions. I don't blame either of
those agencies. I don't think it's their responsibility to ask
the Russians. I think it's the State Department's
responsibility or President Clinton in his relationship with
Boris Yeltsin, and why they haven't done that--I've given you
my own best estimate as to why--but I think this country should
demand and hopefully through your committee will demand this
administration come clean with the American people. If they're
so worried about land mines, as my colleague Mr. Campbell so
eloquently stated, you hear people talking about land mines.
We've got, according to what's happened in Switzerland, land
mines over America.
Mr. Burton. And possibly 84 nuclear weapons.
Mr. Weldon. And possibly.
Mr. Burton. Let me ask Mr. Campbell a few questions.
What sites in California--I don't know if you've done any
research on this--but what sites in California other than those
that you enumerated do you think would be of great concern if
there were devices of this type planted here in California?
Mr. Campbell. My source is going to be as described in the
testimony of the--from the Mitrokhin files, and that indicated
strategic targets for civil disturbance to create havoc in the
event of a war, in the event of a war, and the particular
subjects were military bases, gas and petroleum pipeline as
likely, and then naturally those closer to the border because
the possibility of bringing them across and then repositioning
once they're across was suggested. So those would be the most
likely. But I repeat that the key here is somebody knows. This
is remarkable. Somebody does know; and therefore, why don't we
use our diplomatic efforts to find out?
Mr. Burton. One of the things that concerns me every time I
come to California--I love this State. It's a beautiful State.
You have great recreational facilities. When I land at LAX, I'm
always afraid there's going to be a terrible earthquake and the
San Andreas Fault is going to split, and we're all going to go
into the ocean. Kidding of course, but the fact of the matter
is, if a major nuclear device of the 10 kiloton range was set
off in close proximity to one of the major fault areas, I
wonder how that would affect not only that particular area but
also the entire possibility of an earthquake that would go
further.
Mr. Campbell. I don't have the expertise to answer that
question. I'm nowhere near a seismologist, but every
Californian is an amateur seismologist, Mr. Chairman; but I
don't have the expertise to answer it. I'll take your question
and look at it through the microscope as opposed to the
telescope end, and I would say that the fact that we do have
shifting geology means that it's a distinct possibility that
some of these locations might never be identified. That was in
the Mitrokhin--that was in the Hill book--excuse me, the Andrew
book regarding one of the European sites in Belgium, that they
were not able to find it because there had been road work and
reconstruction and change in the topography, so all the more
so.
So I won't answer your first question because I just lack
the expertise, but I would say being able to identify where a
place was is not--10, 15 years ago may not get you all that you
need to be when the ground shifts.
Mr. Burton. Mr. Scarborough.
Mr. Campbell. Mr. Chairman, might I offer one last thought?
Mr. Burton. Sure.
Mr. Campbell. Then I'd love to hear from my colleague from
Florida. We have in the Congress a mechanism for solving and
dealing with these problems. We do. If there are high-level,
highly confidential communications between our Government and
another, it can be shared with the Intelligence Committee, and
you know how this works. I think it's important to emphasize
that, that no one here is saying to our administration do
anything which would jeopardize secure communications, but to
give no answer at all, just to present almost an arrogant
refusal to answer the question that a Congressman might ask on
behalf of his constituents is unacceptable; and if instead the
letter I'd gotten back was to say this is a matter we need to
take up with the Intelligence Committee where it will stay in
camera, where there is representation of both parties, I would
have been absolutely satisfied.
Mr. Weldon. And so would I, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Burton. Mr. Scarborough.
Mr. Scarborough. Thank you. But moving beyond that though,
if in fact there are possibly nuclear devices in the State of
California, do not Californians also have a right to know where
those devices were planted?
Mr. Campbell. I do understand a public security, public
safety concern that if the matter becomes so grave as that that
it be handled with delicacy, but it has to be handled by
someone. It's not acceptable, not even to make an inquiry and
then not even to give an answer to a Congress Member who asks.
Mr. Scarborough. And Congressman Campbell, you spoke of the
possibility of these devices being used in the event of war,
but Congressman Weldon, didn't you talk about the possibility
of these devices even being used outside of war by again
quoting that 1995 document?
Mr. Weldon. Absolutely, Mr. Scarborough.
Mr. Scarborough. And if you could again highlight that
because it sounds as if Russian military officials in 1995 were
advocating nothing less than nuclear blackmail to prevent
results on the international scale that could be negative to
the country.
Mr. Weldon. Mr. Scarborough, you're absolutely correct. The
document says the importance of warfare in enemy rear areas is
what it talks about; and it goes through, and it mentions
compact nuclear ammunition, weapons, mines, explosives and
other special means, and it goes down to the other paragraph,
as I said before, special task forces as stated above can be
used not only in war but also in peacetime during a period of
threat. And who determines the period of threat?
Mr. Scarborough. Right. And when you talk about these
special op forces, again what are you talking about? Are you
talking about them possibly placing these nuclear devices
throughout California? Somebody said Shenandoah Valley, also.
Mr. Weldon. Weapons of mass destruction. It could be some
kind of biological agent. When we had--it was either Lunev or
Gordoyevski talk about the use of chemical and biological,
because we also had another witness come in who ran the Russian
biological weapons program for about 10 years, and Peter, his
name--the book, Biohazard, I can't think of his name.
Ms. Katzin. It was Ken Alibeck.
Mr. Weldon. Ken Alibeck. Ken Alibeck, who was again here
under an assumed name in America, testified as the person who
ran the Soviet biological weapons program that they used these
weapons against their own people--he was part of it--and he
said it was no doubt in his mind that there were intents to use
those same materials in this country. Now, we didn't cover that
as part of this hearing, but that's another Russian. That's not
an American saying that. It's Dr. Ken Alibeck saying it, and
his book basically documents that. His book is called
``Biohazard.''
Mr. Scarborough. You all have both studied I would guess in
the intelligence arena and in the armed service arena, you've
studied these areas also, haven't you, as far as the impact of
biological warfare on American cities?
Mr. Weldon. Mr. Scarborough, my committee's assignment is
to chair the Resource and Development Committee for national
security which means my subcommittee oversees about $36 billion
a year of defense spending, a significant portion of which is
used to develop research programs and new capability to detect
and deal with weapons of mass destruction: biological,
chemical, and nuclear.
Mr. Campbell. And my responsibility is on the International
Relations Committee, not the Intelligence Committee, but in the
IR Committee, we have held hearings on precisely the question
you raised.
Mr. Scarborough. And could you simplify for somebody that's
not looked into the biological weapons--I mean, we hear this
anecdotal evidence. We hear of an airplane flying at 1,000 feet
over a city or 3,000 feet over the city dropping particles that
could kill everybody in Washington, DC, or Los Angeles, CA. Is
there the possibility of doing that also on the ground by these
devices, and could you briefly explain?
Mr. Weldon. Absolutely. In fact, it's happened. There was a
terrorist group in Japan a few years ago that used Sarin and
wiped out the whole first responder group coming into a subway
because they didn't know what they were facing. When Aliback
testified again before the Congress in an open hearing, he said
that was his job. As the head of the Soviet biological weapons
program, his job was to develop--and they developed over 150
strains of biological agents that could be used against
adversaries or even used against Soviet citizens which he and
Gordoyevski both have testified has been done in the past.
So now we're talking about probably one of the three
gravest threats we face in this century, that along with
missile proliferation and cyber-terrorism and the need for us
to establish information dominance. They are the three biggest
threats we face because weapons of mass destruction are here. I
mean, we know that at the World Trade Center bombing, there
were actually two devices there. The first device destroyed the
garage area. Thank goodness the second device didn't go off
because it would have penetrated the HVAC system in that
complex.
I mean, there are those who want to cause havoc in America,
and biological and chemical agents are a weapon of choice today
because they're relatively easy to make and the technology has
been worked on for years by the Russians. In fact, their
stockpiles are overwhelming. When Alexi Yablokov testified, he
said for arms control purposes, we estimate the amount of
chemical weapons that Russia has to be 40,000 metric tons, and
Yablokov said he's personally aware that they produced over
100,000 metric tons. So where's the rest? We just don't know.
Mr. Campbell. And I would only add to that that the
enclosed space is the danger which obviously made the Japanese
subway the target that it was for that particular terrorist
group. The problem is enclosed space also describes almost
every high rise built in the last 20 years. As you go more and
more to sealed windows, the possibility of a biological agent
spreading through an enclosed space, subway or high rise, makes
it a very--an exceptionally dangerous possibility for a weapon
of mass destruction.
Mr. Scarborough. Congressman Campbell, you are without a
doubt considered one of the most thoughtful Members of
Congress, and sometimes it's maddening to some people in
leadership who would like you to grab a torch and follow the
crowd into battle, but you've remained remarkably independent
in Washington and you just don't demagogue, and so with that as
a preface, I'm going to ask you a pretty tough question that I
would expect the answer a certain way from other Members, but I
know, again, you're a straight shooter.
Let me ask you, as somebody who represents the people of
California, do you believe that Californian citizens are in
danger of coming in contact with weapons of mass destruction
because of the information that Mr. Weldon and you and others
have brought to this committee?
Mr. Campbell. I want to thank you for your kind words in
the premise of your question. I want to say that my duty is to
the people I represent, and the evidence that I've seen is what
led me to ask for this hearing, to go to Chairman Burton, to
study the material that Curt Weldon had prepared. It's no
different than you'd do for the people of Florida or people in
your district.
It is, in my judgment, distinctly possible that there are
prepositioned communications devices at a minimum. It is, in my
judgment, highly likely that those prepositioned communications
devices are booby-trapped because they were, the ones that we
checked, that were checked out were, and aging booby traps, as
we know from our knowledge of land mines, are unstable, and
people can innocently run across them. So I'm going to be
cautious. I'm going to be very cautious and say that what I
have just described is, in my view, a realistic risk. The
possibility of danger to innocent people who come across a
booby-trapped communications cache or cache of whatever or the
simple aging and deterioration thereof creates an important
matter of potential risk to alleviate which the administration
ought to at least answer a polite question.
Mr. Scarborough. And Congressman Weldon, this will be my
last question. I'll ask you the same question I asked
Congressman Campbell. Are the people of Los Angeles and the
people of the State of California in danger because of the
information that's been brought before this committee?
Mr. Weldon. Absolutely, and that's according to General
Alexander Lebed who told me that. It's according to Alexi
Yablokov who told me that. It's according to Stanislav Lunev
who told me that. It's according to Dr. Christopher Andrew who
told me that. It's according to Oleg Gordievsky who told me
that, and it's according to people that I worked with in Russia
who say that we need to understand there are those in the past
of the Soviet history who had very unbelievable intents against
America and its people. Now, that being said, do I think all
Russia's our enemy? Absolutely not. And do I work at developing
strong relations? Absolutely.
Just in closing, I'd like to add one final thought if I
might to both Mr. Scarborough's comment, and Mr. Chairman, your
leadership. This does not have to be a case where it's us
backing Russia into a corner. We give Russia--the American
people give Russia $1 billion a year through the cooperative
threat reduction program, through the laboratory to lab
cooperation program, through programs involving agricultural
assistance, through help for their nuclear waste, through
programs involving economic development, all of which, by the
way, I support. I'm an active supporter of all of them, but we
give them $1 billion a year. It's a simple thing of the
administration asking the tough questions, and I think that's
why I said at the beginning I think this is an example of this
administration's policy failures.
They have never wanted to ask the tough questions. They've
never wanted to ask about the IMF funds that the oligarchs
stole. They never wondered that the Russians lost respect
because we supported Yeltsin, even though that they knew that
Yeltsin's cronies and his daughter were stealing money. It's a
question of the arms control treaty violations, 17 of them,
that we never called Russia on. In each case it's been the
same. We don't want to ask the question as a Nation, and now we
are paying a price for that.
And in this case I agree with Mr. Campbell's assessment. He
is always--and I agree with you, he's the most thoughtful
Member we have in the Congress in both parties, and I think all
of our colleagues would agree with that, that Tom is taking the
conservative threat that we're so enamored with this idea of
land mines. Well, what are we talking about? A land mine to the
extent that the Swiss Government had to put out an alert for
all their people. That's reality. This is not some made up idea
or some movie. This is what really occurred; and therefore,
this administration owes the American people and the Congress a
response. And I thank you two for leading the effort to demand
that response.
Mr. Scarborough. I thank you, and Mr. Chairman, I thank
you. And I certainly believe that if Californians are in
danger, as well as people in Indiana and Florida, then the
administration should step forward and ask the difficult
questions. I'd like to yield back.
Mr. Burton. Thank you very much, Congressman Scarborough.
What I'd like to do now is take about a 5 to 10 minute break so
Mr. Lunev can be brought into the room in a secure situation.
We have to put up a panel around him. I'd like to also ask Mr.
Campbell and Mr. Weldon, without objection, to join us on the
dais because of their expertise, so they can help us ask
questions of Mr. Lunev. We also will have Dr. William Green and
Dr. Peter Pry come forward as well so they can be part of that
panel. So we'll take a recess here for about 5 to 10 minutes to
get the security in place.
[Recess.]
Mr. Burton. Would Dr. William Green and Dr. Peter Pry also
come forward, please, and Dr. Pry, your seat is over to my
left, and Dr. Green, there you are. I won't ask Mr. Lunev to
stand up because his head is going to be above the partition.
Would the other two please rise and raise your right hands
please, and would you raise your right hand?
[Witnesses sworn.]
Mr. Burton. Thank you. You may be seated.
Let me just say before we start the statements by the
witnesses that some people of the media have indicated that we
might be trying to create paranoia and a new cold war. That
could not be further from the truth. Congressman Weldon stated
very clearly that it is extremely important that we try to have
a good relationship with the Russian people and the Russian
Government.
At the same time that that is important, it's also
important for us to know whether or not there's any threat to
American citizens on American soil, and that's why we're
holding these hearings. It's incumbent upon Members of Congress
to try to protect--in fact, we have a constitutional obligation
to try to protect the security of American citizens, and so
it's important that we have these hearings to try to make sure
the American people know what's going on.
Abraham Lincoln said--and he was a pretty good President--
let the people know the facts and the country will be saved.
It's just as true today as it was back then. So I'm distressed
that some members of the media are thinking we're trying to
scare everybody to death. We're not trying to do that. We're
trying to get the facts out so that we know that if there's
nothing to fear, there's nothing to fear; and if there is, that
we get it cleaned up.
OK. I think we'll start with Colonel Lunev, and I'd like to
say before Colonel Lunev starts to speak that this is not his
real name. He is in the witness protection program with the--
you say the FBI and CIA together. In fact, I'll ask him that
question in a minute and--but he is, as I said, a very high
official, the highest GRU official that's defected to the
United States. So we'll start with you, Mr. Lunev.
STATEMENTS OF STANISLAV LUNEV, FORMER GRU OFFICER, AUTHOR OF
``THROUGH THE EYES OF THE ENEMY;'' WILLIAM GREEN, CALIFORNIA
STATE UNIVERSITY--SAN BERNADINO, NAVAL RESERVES INTELLIGENCE
OFFICER; AND PETER VINCENT PRY, FORMER EMPLOYEE OF THE CENTRAL
INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, AUTHOR OF ``WAR SCARE''
Mr. Lunev. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, ladies
and gentlemen.
Mr. Burton. Would you speak--pull the microphone as close
to you as you can.
Mr. Lunev. First of all, thank you for inviting me for so
beautiful place like Los Angeles. Of course, weather is a
little bit different from East Coast now which is under ice and
snow, you know, and, of course, I would like to spend few of
your minutes, especially to explain you my position about all
this--actually, very dangerous stuff which unfortunately is in
place now in time when former Soviet Union doesn't exist about
one decade.
For me, it was really surprise that after I wrote my book,
actually after publishing of this book, that American people
know so little about possible danger for the national security
of this country. Last year when I began to work for one of the
Internet companies, its name is newsmag.com, I had a chance to
give a lot of radio and TV interviews to different people, and
it's one more to underscore my point about shortage of
knowledge of American people about national security of this
country.
First of all, I need to return back to history because in
time of former Soviet Union existence, Soviet General staff
designed special plan for the future war against America and
American friends and allies worldwide. According to this plan,
Soviet special operation forces commanders need to come to this
country and other NATO countries in few days, maybe hours,
before real war would be in place, like students, tourists,
visitors, businessmen, by regular airlines, and before real war
would be in place, they need to pick up weapons systems which
are already located in this country, including technical
nuclear devices. This is--official name is technical portable
atomic demolition devices, containers with chemical and
biological weapons, conventional weapons system, communication
devices, actual money, credit cards, documentation, which are
already storage in this country, and in few hours or minutes
before regular nuclear missile strike will hit American soil,
this special operation forces commanders will pick up this
weapons system, move this weapons system to their area of
operational use, and we will destroy economical and military
political infrastructure of this country; first of all, targets
which could not be destroyed by regular missile nuclear strike.
And in fulfillment of these duties they have to destroy
power stations, communications system of this country,
physically eliminate American leaders who are involved in
military chain of command. It means President, Vice President,
Speaker of the House, chairman of the leading committees of the
U.S. Congress, joint chief of staff members and other people,
and especially not to provide them possibility to escape from
the ground in time when real war would be in place. After this,
regular missile nuclear strike and ground operation, ground
invasion in European countries against NATO and final stage
amphibious operation and invasion to the United States.
Of course, you understand that this is history, but I need
to tell you that history is history, but unfortunately, just
now a situation is not very good, and these military plans are
still existent in Russian General staff, and these military
plans in time of possible war would be fulfilled by special
operation forces commanders, by strategic forces or Russian
Federation exclude only one last part of this plan, because in
time after this plan was designed by Soviet General staff,
nuclear weapons systems have developed so much that actually
nobody will need to invade on the territory or foreign
countries because NATO countries' territory and American
territory could be totally destroyed by nuclear weapons system,
and if something could not be destroyed by nuclear weapons, you
know how many millions of looters will come to this country and
they will finish actually all this destruction process.
And just now what we are talking about, location of
technical nuclear devices, containers with chemical biological
weapons, conventional weapons system and others, these places
we have selected extremely carefully for a long, long period of
time, and to believe that it is possible to find this places
just like that without using extremely, extremely large
resources of this country, I don't think that it would be
realistic until Russian Government, which still have keys for
these locations will not disclose this location.
And it was one of my major points when I wrote book that by
publication of my book I would keep informed Russian military
leaders that it is not secret anymore about this weapons
existence and location outside of Russian Federation, and I
hope that after this book publication, these devices could be
removed from America and other territories of American friends
and allies and returned to Russia. Unfortunately, until now, I
do not have any real news that it's happened, and just now I
can only to think about that these weapons systems are still
existent on American soil and on the territory of American
friends and allies.
Thank you for your time, ladies and gentlemen.
Mr. Burton. Thank you very much, Mr. Lunev.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Lunev follows:]
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Mr. Burton. I'd like to go to Dr. Pry next for his opening
statement.
Dr. Pry. Mr. Chairman, thank you for having me here today
to testify before your committee on Russian threats to United
States security in the post-cold war world.
The administration claims its Russia policy is a
spectacular success when in fact it is a spectacular failure.
We've been told that capitalism and democracy are basically on
track in Russia when they're not. We've been told by the
administration that America's children are safe from Russian
nuclear weapons because of the detargeting of their missiles
when, in fact, America's children are not safe from the Russian
nuclear threat.
The administration's Russia policy has been more of a
public relations campaign to persuade the American people that
all is well rather than a hard-headed, well-attended program to
really advance free enterprise and democracy in Russia and to
protect United States vital national interests. Despite
administration claims that our Russia policy is a success, many
of us have watched and worried and warned for years that our
Russia policy is careening toward failure.
Now, the media and the American people have recently been
shocked awake by a new brutal Russian leadership that has
manipulated the electoral process to, in effect, thwart the
free and fair elections in Russia. We have been shocked awake
by the war in Chechnya where the Russian military is using
missiles, flame throwers, and fuel air explosives--classified
in their own military doctrine as weapons of mass destruction--
to subdue their own people. We have been shocked awake by
Russian military and foreign officials who have officially
blamed the United States for provoking the Chechen crisis as
part of a larger conspiracy to have NATO penetrate the
Caucasuses and gain control of the oil wealth of the Caspian
Sea.
We've been shocked awake by President Putin and others
brazenly making nuclear threats against the United States,
including Putin on December 14 attending the launch of SS-X-27
ICBM, where he made a direct nuclear threat against the United
States not to interfere in Russian internal affairs: And we
have been shocked awake by President Putin's recent embrace of
a new national security concept that describes the West as a
threat to Russia, and relies on nuclear weapons and a nuclear
first strike as the primary cornerstone of Russia's national
security policy.
None of this comes as a surprise to those of us who have
been skeptical of the administration's claims that its Russia
policy is basically on track and successful and who have
independently followed and thought about what's been happening
in Russia over the years. Indeed, everything discussed today
about Russian military caches prepositioned on NATO territory,
about nuclear suitcases, and other aspects of the Russian
threat are part of a larger pattern, manifestations of a ``war
scare'' mentally among the Russian General staff and national
security elite described in my recently published book, ``War
Scare: Russia and America on the Nuclear Brink.''
War scare is a term of art used in the intelligence
community to describe one-sided nuclear crises where Moscow
mistakenly believed it faced the possibility of an imminent
nuclear attack from the West, and prepared to preempt that
threat.
Beginning in the early 1980's, Soviet elites feared that
they were losing the cold war and understood that the strains
of the cold war competition were worsening the Soviet economy
and encouraging the disintegrative internal conditions that
eventually led to the collapse of the Soviet Union. They feared
that the United States, sensing this growing weakness, might
try to exploit the situation by launching a surprise nuclear
attack. Disintegration of the Warsaw Pact and disintegration of
the Soviet Union itself was and is still viewed in Moscow as
not merely an internal crisis, but as a profound international
crisis that has upset global order and the balance of power and
may tempt the West to aggression against a weakened Russia.
Fear and insecurity in Russia's General staff and in its
national security elite has worsened as Russia's political
fortunes, economy, and military capabilities have continued to
decline over the years. Thus, while the West has tended to
think of relations with Russia as steadily improving over the
last decade, the Russian General staff and security services
have viewed those relations as in a deep systemic crisis, akin
to the protracted 20 years crisis that preceded World War II.
They live in constant fear that the United States and NATO
might at any moment move to finish Russia off and thereby
remove any possible future challenge to the West's complete
domination of the world order.
All of this may seem hard to believe given the popular
tendency to think of Russia exclusively in terms of the benign
personality that was Boris Yeltsin, and given vociferous
assurances by the administration, rarely challenged by the
media, that Russia is now a strategic partner and no longer a
threat to the United States. But there are some cold, hard
facts about Russia that the American people and policymakers
need to know in order to accurately appraise United States-
Russian relations, in order to understand that there is still a
serious threat from that quarter.
Russian offensive strategic forces programs, for example.
Despite an economy where they can barely feed and house their
own people, Russia is continuing to produce intercontinental
ballistic missiles, cranking out SS-25s, deploying a new SS-27
ICBM which is the most technologically advanced ICBM in the
world, building new ballistic missile submarines, trying to
develop new sub-launched ballistic missiles, attempting to
modernize its strategic bomber force and building two new
classes of strategic cruise missiles.
Russian defensive strategic programs. They are attempting
to modernize the Moscow ABM system which is basically a de
facto national missile defense. The world's only existing
national missile defense; but more important than this, they're
putting vast resources into constructing hundreds of deep
underground facilities, modernizing some facilities that
already exist but building new ones, too, including some like
Yamantau Mountain, which is a deep underground facility as
large as Washington, DC, inside the beltway that has only one
purpose: to survive a nuclear conflict. What its purpose is
beyond that we actually don't know and have been attempting to
find out, but the Russians have gone to great lengths to
conceal the purpose of Yamantau Mountain. Kosvinsky Mountain is
another example. We know what that is. It's a new general staff
command post vastly harder and more capable than our own deep
underground facility at NORAD headquarters. Its purpose is to
manage a thermonuclear conflict, and these facilities are
undergoing construction 24 hours a day in a country where they
can't even provide housing for their own people.
There is evidence that Congressman Weldon alluded to,
actually showed you very specifically--the gyroscopes and the
accelerometers. There's evidence of deliberate Russian
proliferation of missiles and weapons of mass destruction
technology to countries that are hostile to the United States.
This apparently fits into a strategy that ``the enemy of my
enemy is my friend.''
There is a new anti-Western strategic partnership with
China that is emerging between the two where China supports
Russian interests against NATO expansion and Russia is
supporting Chinese interests via Taiwan. Russia is giving its
high-tech support to China to modernize its military, building
things like SU-27 factories in China so that they can have new
fighter aircraft that are several generations more advanced
than what the Chinese had before.
We have talked at length about the military caches in NATO
already and the possibility of nuclear suitcases. Obviously a
country that engages in such activities does not regard us as a
strategic partner or regard the prospects for future peace as
very likely. There's evidence that operation VRYAN continues.
Operation VRYAN was the largest cold war intelligence program
ever launched by Russia. It's an acronym that stands for
``surprise nuclear missile attack.'' Beginning in the early
1980's, the political military elite told the KGB and the GRU
and their other intelligence services to be on the lookout for
the possibility that the United States might imminently launch
a surprise nuclear attack. This was because of the strains and
stresses that I described earlier, when they realized they were
losing the cold war and they were fearful that the West might
actually be moving to finish them off.
So they started looking for evidence that the United States
was preparing to launch a nuclear surprise attack. Every 2
weeks a VRYAN report was sent to their top political-military
leadership on the possibility that nuclear war was right around
the corner. This program is known, begun in the early 1980's,
is known to have continued at least into the 1990's, and
there's evidence that it continues still.
In connection with this--I will mention as an aside--that
part of it was not just intelligence collection. There was also
a computer program that was part of the VRYAN project because
of the belief that they would be able to, by calculating the
correlation of forces, the balance of military and economic and
political power and looking at particular strategic warning
indicators, use a very sophisticated computer program to
predict when the United States might actually launch this
nuclear attack. This was to inform the General staff so that
they could beat us to the punch and strike us first.
Most disturbingly, the American people and policymakers
need to know most of all about the nuclear war scare crises of
the 1980's and 1990's when on several occasions the Russian
General staff mistakenly believed that the United States might
be preparing to attack, and Russian nuclear forces were placed
on alert in readiness to launch a first strike just in case.
War scares occurred during ABLE ARCHER-83. This was a NATO
theater nuclear exercise in November 1983; in May 1992, during
the Armenian/Azerbaijan crisis; in October 1993 during the
parliamentary crisis in Moscow that resulted in fighting in the
streets in Moscow between Yeltsin forces and that of the
national Communist parliament; during January 1995 in response
to, of all things, the launch of a meteorological rocket by
Norway; probably during Battle-Griffin in 1996 which was a NATO
exercise held up near Norway; possibly during Central-Asian
Battalion-97, a Partnership for Peace exercise held in the fall
of 1997; and most recently, during Desert Fox in December 1999.
Some of these--the Russian nuclear alerts in response to
ABLE ARCHER 83 and the January 1995 event were more dangerous
than the Cuban missile crisis, and yet remain unknown or
virtually unknown to the American public and to policymakers. I
will describe quickly just one of these events, the January
1995 event.
In this case Norway and NASA were jointly developing a
meteorological rocket to study the aurora borealis. It was a
missile of unusual size. Norway had never launched a missile of
this size before. It was a multistage missile, launched from
Andoya Island out in the Norwegian Sea. They sent their
ballistic missile launch notification to the Russian foreign
ministry just as they were supposed to, but due to a clerical
error by an inexperienced staffer in the foreign ministry, the
message never got to the Russian General staff and the
Strategic Rocket Forces that the launch was going to occur.
As a consequence, when the General staff picked up this
missile being launched on their radars, initially they didn't
realize that it was coming from Andoya Island which is located
in the Norwegian Sea. Radars can't precisely geolocate a
missile in the initial minutes it's launched, and it could have
been coming from nearby ballistic missile patrol areas that our
Trident Ohio-class submarines patrol. In their doctrine, this
is one of the things they feared most in terms of a Western
surprise nuclear attack; that a single missile would be
launched from this location which has the shortest flight-time
to Moscow so that an electromagnetic pulse attack could be
done. This is an exoatmospheric nuclear detonation that creates
a very powerful radio wave that would fry their electronics,
their radars, their command and control so they couldn't
retaliate. And then, just behind that, there would be this
massive attack.
The General staff took so seriously this threat that it
actually activated all three chegets. These are the nuclear
``footballs'' that are carried by the Russian military-
political leadership. Yeltsin, the defense minister, and the
chief of the General staff. The chegets have only one purpose
when they're activated. You're under a surprise nuclear attack:
push the button to retaliate. That was basically the General's
staff implicit advice when it activated the chegets.
Fortunately for us, Boris Yeltsin was at the helm; and he
didn't believe it. He couldn't believe the West was going to
attack and waited, waited long enough to see that missile was
actually going away from Russia and not toward it. But during
that moment, it only lasted 20 minutes, but it was the single
most dangerous moment of the nuclear missile age. And we were
literally one decision away from a global thermonuclear
conflict, one decision away. Boris Yeltsin was being asked to
push the button, and that was January 1995, not that long ago.
If we look at this question quantitatively, are we safer
now? Are we safer now, now that the cold war is over? Let's
just look at some of these numbers on these nuclear alerts.
During the cold war, we averaged about one nuclear alert by the
Soviet Union per decade. You know, the Cuban missile crisis in
the sixties. There was the Berlin crisis before that in the
fifties where there was a nuclear alert. Then the Cuban missile
crisis. Then the 1973 Middle East war. All of those had nuclear
alerts, about one per decade. Then in the 1980's, when they saw
themselves starting to lose the cold war competition, there
were two. In the 1990's, counting these lists that I rattled
off, we have had the Russians engaging in a nuclear alert on
average about once every 2 years to 18 months. Just looking at
the numbers, the frequency of war scare incidents has actually
increased in the post-cold war period.
So why haven't people heard about these events and the
facts of Russia's ongoing preparation for war? Knowing these
things is at least as important in evaluating the true state of
United States-Russian relations, as knowing that Russia does
occasionally hold something like free elections. In fairness,
some of the information I have been describing here hasn't been
all that available to the public and the media. My book draws
on recently declassified National Intelligence Estimates and
materials that are still Top Secret in Russia and that have
been provided to us by various sources, including by several
heroic defectors who must now live under witness protection
programs because they are under threat of death from their
security services that they used to work for.
Also, and this is primarily the main reason people are
unaware of these things: we in the West tend to be strategic
optimists, and we don't want to hear bad news about Russia.
Some of these things actually did make the newspapers and
blurbs back on page 24, but they didn't fit into the overall
paradigm we've had from the administration of improving
relations with Russia. And so people don't know what to do with
the data; it gets filed away; it gets forgotten.
The administration, for its part, has played a role in this
because it's, of course, eager to encourage our optimism about
our relations with Russia. It doesn't want to be blamed for
losing Russia, especially in an election year.
Nonetheless, Russia's public statements, behavior and the
copious unclassified writings from the Russian General staff
and security elite have provided enough evidence of their ``war
scare'' mentality that we in the West shouldn't now be
surprised to discover that Russia regards the United States as
an evil empire. Indeed, given Russia's bloody history of
victimization at the hands of numerous invaders, including as
recently as World War II which killed 30 million Russians, it
is entirely logical and predictable that Moscow would now feel
threatened. If not a tendency toward paranoia, there's also a
certain logical inevitability that Moscow would now think it
entirely plausible that there could be a nuclear war with the
United States.
Let us try to stand for a minute in the Russian General
staff's shoes and do an experiment of the imagination. Let's
try to see things from Moscow's point of view. Suppose history
worked out differently and we had lost the cold war competition
because capitalism turned out to be an inefficient way of
organizing your economy and society and that communism was
really the way to go and that that provided for a productive
economy and society. Suppose as a consequence of the failures
of capitalism our economy and the Western economy was a
disaster so that we could no longer provide food and housing
for our people and that this drew out internal strains in our
society that were so severe that our country actually
fragmented geographically, so that the southern confederate
States broke away and we lost them, and lost states in the
West, as happened with the Soviet Union and is now threatening
to happen with Russia. Suppose that the economy is so bad that
we couldn't even sustain our general purpose forces anymore.
The Army and Navy and Marines are all neglected and rusting
away, and the only thing left to us are our nuclear forces.
That's the only thing left that works.
Suppose further that our former allies and NATO basically
want to join the winning side and the NATO alliance
disintegrates, just as the Warsaw Pact disintegrated and former
NATO member states, Britain, Italy, Germany, the Benelux
countries are clamoring to join the Warsaw Pact, and the Soviet
Union, strong and robust, decides to bring them in and that
next year Germany and Britain and Italy are going to join the
Warsaw Pact and so will Canada. So we will now have the Warsaw
Pact pressing against our northern border. Suppose in
preparation for joining the Warsaw Pact, the Soviet Union with
its new allies decides to conduct major military exercises off
our Atlantic and Pacific coasts, drops paratroopers opposite
Minot Air Force Base, not a threat to us mind you, just to
demonstrate that these guys are ready to join NATO. It's a part
of the Partnership for Peace, and to show they are ready to
join the Warsaw Pact.
Suppose they--the Soviet Union--announces that it is
establishing a new world order and is leading these new allies,
leads multinational coalitions to set things straight on
peacekeeping operations to Nicaragua to empower the
Sandinistas, and to Mexico because they disapprove of Mexican
policies, and after demonstrating high-tech conventional
weapons that we are decades away from being able to copy they
approach within a few hundred kilometers of the Texas border
and then withdraw.
Even if they were giving us a billion rubles a year to help
our economy out and even if they called us strategic partners,
would we feel safe? I think not. I think that we would be
terrified and that we would be thinking--we would be very
concerned about these exercises and peacekeeping operations,
and we would think that--we would be very fearful of the
possibility that the Soviet Union might want to finally finish
the cold war, bring it to a complete conclusion by eliminating
the United States so that we could never possibly threaten
their attempt to completely dominate the global order and
establish a new order. I think that our fingers would hover
near the nuclear button every time there was a big exercise or
big peacekeeping operation because we would be wondering, is
this it? Are they really going to come after us this time,
under the guise of peacekeeping operation or exercise?
And, indeed, we can see that in our own history there was a
time when our fingers hovered near the button. During the
Eisenhower administration, when the Red Army stood poised to
roll over Western Europe and we could not match the Red Army in
terms of general purpose forces, we relied very heavily on our
nuclear forces and planned, in fact, for a nuclear first strike
against Russia to cope with their conventional superiority. And
this from a society that's a democratic society and a society
of strategic optimists. How much more worried would you be if
you were the Russian General staff, the product of a ferocious
totalitarian order and of a very bloody, unpeaceful history?
Well, I have described the problem. So what should we do?
First, we should keep our nuclear deterrent strong, nor should
we hesitate to acquire defenses to protect ourselves from
missiles. U.S. military strength is probably what deterred the
General staff and prevented the war scares of the past from
becoming actual nuclear wars. But we should redouble efforts to
prove that we are not a threat through exchange programs with
the Congress and Russian Duma, as Congressman Weldon is doing,
through military officers and students. We should continue to
provide economic aid. Maybe we should increase our economic aid
but change the way we're doing it, not the way the
administration has been doing it. Try to provide aid that
directly reaches the grassroots, the Russian people themselves,
not giving billions to the Russian elite and the former
nomenklatura who then deposit it into Swiss bank accounts.
But most of all, we should be aware that Russia is a threat
and is still a nuclear super power, the only Nation on Earth
that can end Western civilization in 30 minutes. This all-
important fact should form all of our decisions on NATO
expansion, on peacekeeping, on whether or not we conduct
various kinds of exercises. I do not say that we should not
expand NATO or engage in peacekeeping, but let us stop
pretending that these are virtually risk-free activities. A
good case can be made for NATO expansion and peacekeeping, but
let us do so with our eyes open to the very real risks so that
we may intelligently weigh the risks and benefits to the
American people in foreign and defense policy decisions that
affect our relations with Russia.
This concludes my substantive remarks, and gentlemen, I
thank you for allowing me here today to speak.
Mr. Burton. Thank you, Dr. Pry.
[The prepared statement of Dr. Pry follows:]
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Mr. Burton. Dr. Green.
Mr. Green. Mr. Chairman, I appear before you with a certain
disadvantage. As a college professor, I'm used to speaking in
90 minute blocks but in the interest----
Mr. Burton. Ninety minutes is too long.
Mr. Green. Yes, sir, but in the interest of leaving as much
time as possible for questions, I'll try to be terse.
I welcome the opportunity to testify before this committee
on the potential security threats presented by the Russian
Federation's nuclear weapons policy. My generation was born and
grew up under the Soviet nuclear threat. The end of the cold
war and the emergence of a democratic system in Russia filled
me, as it did most of the world, with jubilation, and it
wasn't--and the big reason for this is because the threat of
nuclear war between the super powers seemed to have faded away,
and so I've been watching the slow erosion of Russia's young
democracy and the rebirth of tensions between Russia and the
United States with deep concern.
Now, a number of recent developments have come together to
bring this concern into the public eye. Some Americans have
taken note that Russian words and actions are much more
belligerent in the wake of NATO's decision last spring to
conduct its first out of area operation to prevent Serbian
ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. This new concern about Russia was
reinforced last month when then President Boris Yeltsin
publicly reminded President Clinton that Russia remains a
nuclear power. Most recently, just 10 days ago and within 2
weeks of taking office, Russian Acting-President Vladimir Putin
has issued a revised national security concept that not only
identifies the United States as a serious threat to Russia's
security but appears to lower the nuclear threshold in dealing
with threats from the United States.
This national security concept is a revised version of a
previous issue that came out in December 1997 of the national
security concept. Both are policy statements or frameworks
meant to integrate the most important state initiatives of the
Russian Federation. Russia views its national security, and I
put that in quotes, much more broadly than does the United
States for these two 20 page, 20 plus page reports include
threats to any aspect of life and security, and I am quoting
there as well, in defining the term. They summarize not only
foreign and defense issues but also matters that we would view
as pertaining to our domestic policy, including the economic
well-being of the Nation, crime and corruption, ecological
hazards and even, I quote again, the adverse impact of foreign
religious organizations and missionaries.
One question that should be dismissed immediately is
whether this changes the personal initiative of Vladimir Putin,
acting Russian President and current front runner in the March
Presidential campaign. He is in many ways an unattractive
character given his KGB background and his austere, even his
harsh personality. Although Putin's tactic of tying renewed war
in Chechnya to his drive for national leadership has attracted
much criticism abroad, at home it may very well be the factor
that propels him into the Presidency. So, therefore, there's a
natural tendency to see this new national security concept as
Putin's attempt to put his mark on security policy in the brief
run up to the next election, plain politics. Indeed, I have
read one analytic report that labels this flat out the Putin
doctrine.
It's also a natural view, I'm afraid, for those who may be
more willing to blame worsening United States-Russian relations
on Russia's adventuristic new President rather than on more
long-term developments for which the United States Government
is at least partially responsible. In fact, there's been a
lengthy buildup to this particular formulation of Russia's
interest in strategies, and undoubtedly it will continue to be
revised and modified.
The national security concept was published in draft last
October; and since, they have only made minor changes in
wording in the final draft. At the same time, they published a
new draft military doctrine that shares all the same
assumptions about the West and about Russia's security
position. For the past year, most of these issues have been
discussed very openly by Russian military and political
figures. Russian and international press reports indicates that
the nuclear weapons provisions of the new national security
concept were adopted by Russia's security council as far back
as the end of April.
Moreover, you can draw a steady and long-standing departure
between the rhetoric of our post-communism, post-cold war
American and Russian strategic partnership and the actual state
of relations as defined in many key official Russian documents.
This departure begins as early as 1992 when Russia came out
with its foreign policy concept, and it goes to the 1993
version of its military doctrine and so on to the 1997 National
Security Council and now the document that we've had placed
before us.
I think that it's particularly important to compare the
1997 and the January 2000 drafts of Russia's National Security
Council. They are similar in structure, but their differences
are an important indicator of recent movement in the Russian
consensus over international and strategic policy. A difference
that has attracted much attention, of course, are the new
version's much looser terms for describing the conditions under
which nuclear weapons might be used.
In 1997, the national security concept stated, and I quote,
the most important mission of Russian Federation's Armed Forces
is to support nuclear deterrence. The version released earlier
this month states the Russian Federation should possess nuclear
forces capable of guaranteeing the infliction of the desired
extent of damage against any aggressor state or coalition of
states in any conditions and circumstances. It goes on to state
that the Russian Federation will consider the use of all
available forces and assets, including nuclear, in the event of
need to repulse armed aggression if all other measures of
resolving the crisis situation have been exhausted and have
proved ineffective. No indication of deterring nuclear attacks.
This is they've tried their conventional forces; they don't
work; so they're using nuclear weapons.
Mr. Chairman, I don't believe this change of wording
signals an immediate shift in Russia to planning for preemptive
or offensive use of nuclear weapons, but I think that we should
draw two maybe less apocalyptic but still very disturbing
conclusions. I think, first of all, that Russia is warning this
country that while they may be weaker than we are, they're
willing to play by much rougher rules. Russia is willing to
both take and inflict greater losses should a confrontation
turn into an armed conflict.
And Russia has nuclear weapons. In future disputes with
Russia, our growing awareness of this threat may very well
dissuade us from taking forceful action. And I think we do have
to take it seriously.
Second, this lowering of the nuclear threshold should be
viewed in conjunction with an even more important shift in the
national security concept, one that a colleague of mine says
essentially repudiates the 1997 draft. This is a dramatic shift
in the focus and emphasis of the principal threats to Russia.
The current version identifies the United States and NATO in
strong terms as hostile to Russia and to the international
order. The term ``strategic partnership'' that the 1997 version
used to characterize Russia's relations with us and with the
other Western nations has disappeared. Instead, the new version
describes, ``the developed Western nations under U.S.
leadership as attempting to circumvent the fundamental rules of
international law to dominate the world by unilateral means
including military force.''
It alarms me to note that Russian military and political
leaders now use the term ``strategic partnership'' not to
describe us, but to describe their relationship with China;
that Russia is selling some of its most advanced weapons
technology to China; and that the high-level visits and
exchanges between Russia and China appear to be on the
increase. Our relations with both these nations individually
are at a low point. We can ill afford to have the two
coordinate their efforts in an anti-U.S. coalition of sorts.
I don't blame the current administration for the worsened
state of United States-Russian relations that I described. And
in fact, given the unrealistic expectations that we had in the
early 1990's, I think that seeing them deteriorate was almost
inevitable. Both nations were almost certain to take actions
the other would find objectionable.
Just to begin with, Americans working in Russia, Americans
working with Russians abroad are always expressing their
frustration with the degree to which Russian institutions and
Russians individually have been damaged by the Communist
experience. Leaders, organizations and even the national mind
set often seem tainted by the distorted views and values that
the Communist party took pains to inculcate. Decades may pass
before the trauma of those years fades from the Russian
consciousness.
By the same token the realities of the post cold war world
are such that no United States Government, regardless of party
or administration, would have been able to avoid triggering
Russian suspicions and hostilities.
I do hold the current administration responsible for what I
regard as unrealistic and even reckless behavior in the face of
this worsening relationship. To begin with, the United States
Government should have been able to predict worsening ties, or
if not, to track them as Russian antagonism began to grow.
Instead, we have gotten a relentless stream of optimistic
pronouncements and interpretations from administration
spokespersons even as the heat of Russian anger and rhetoric
aimed at us has risen.
Closely tied to this Pollyanna-ish approach is the
administration's failure to establish significant ties with
Russian political and social leaders outside of a narrow circle
of so-called reformers surrounding the Yeltsin Presidency.
While the United States' Government praised their commitment to
democracy and the free market system, these individuals led
Russia through a corrupt privatization program that has
impoverished many Russians and discredited the very concept of
democracy. Indeed, much Russian popular bitterness at the
United States comes from its unconditional backing of a
leadership associated with crime and corrupt rule.
Second, the administration has pursued a number of
initiatives that have alienated Russians regardless of their
political orientation. These include the expansion of NATO,
recent support for research on ballistic missile defense, its
policy of double containment against Iraq and Iran, the
development of close ties with the former Soviet oil producing
nations in the Caspian region, and most recently participation
in NATO's air war against Yugoslavia over Kosovo.
I want to emphasize I'm not opposing these initiatives on
their own merits; in fact, many of them I support
enthusiastically. But it is unrealistic to expect Russia to
remain passive in the face of United States policies that touch
its interests so closely. Russian opposition should have been
taken for granted. The possibility should have been entertained
that Russia would interpret them taken together as evidence of
a grand strategy aimed against it.
The new national security concept identifies one of the,
Fundamental threats in the international sphere as attempts
by other states to oppose a strengthening of Russia as one of
the influential centers of the multipolar world, to hinder the
exercise of its national interest, and to weaken its position
in Europe, the Middle East, Transcaucasia, Central Asia and the
Asia Pacific region.
Finally, I want to express my dismay that current United
States foreign and military policies seem built on the
assumption that good relations with Russia can be taken for
granted. If I'm correct in this interpretation, it is an
assumption built upon sand. We cannot get U.N. Security Council
approval for the numerous overseas interventions and
peacekeeping missions current policy seems to regard as
essential if Russia vetoes them. We cannot project our values
and influence into regions they have never known, such as the
Balkans and Central Asia, if Russia stands ready to combine
with regional tyrannies to keep us out. And we cannot depend on
our shrunken peacetime military and naval forces to defend our
interests abroad if, as a generation ago, a nuclear-armed
Russia adversary backs radical regimes when they find
themselves in confrontation with the United States.
Mr. Chairman, this concludes my prepared statement. I stand
ready to respond to any questions the committee might raise,
following adjournment of this hearing to augment the issues we
have discussed here with additional materials.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Green follows:]
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Mr. Burton. Thank you, Doctor. Let me say for the record
that Dr. Pry is a member of the Armed Services Committee staff
and that he represents the majority on that staff. And I want
to make sure that's clear so that people know that he may,
according to some members and some people, have a bias toward a
different position. I don't believe that to be the case, but I
wanted to make sure that that was stated for the record.
Mr. Weldon. Represents both sides.
Mr. Burton. Excuse me. Oh, he represents both sides on the
Armed Services Committee. So forgive me, Dr. Pry. Appreciate
that.
Let me just start the questioning. And I don't think I'll
question too long because I want to make sure my colleagues
have plenty of time.
Mr. Lunev, there's a lot of people that are going to be
skeptical about what you have said. You were a member of the
GRU. You were the highest ranking official of the intelligence
community in the Soviet Union to defect. Would you elaborate
briefly and tell us why you believe that there is a continued
threat and why you believe that there are weapons of one type
or another and communications equipment of one type or another
that are buried here in the United States for possible use in
the future and why you and others believe that they have
created dossiers on American officials, government officials,
in the event that there's some kind of a potential conflict
that they can target for assassination.
Mr. Lunev. Mr. Chairman, Dr. Pry actually make very good
account of last development connected with Russian military and
Russian military preparations. Including myself, I can spend
very short, very small time I think especially to explain that,
unfortunately, in time when America and American people spent
huge amount of money trying to assist Russia in transition,
transaction to free market economy and to the real democracy,
unfortunately nothing happened in Russia. And American people,
which spent so big money, of course, have all rights to expect
something in return back from Russia. But it's not going point
of view of Russian Government. Because Russian Government which
actually totally destroyed Russian economy--and you know how
Russian people ordinary people just now living in Russian
federation--in this situation Russian Government using very old
traditional or history methods and trying to explain to Russian
people that Russian people are living so bad not because of its
own corrupted government but because of foreign enemy.
And Peter Pry and Dr. Green, they provided us real views of
Russian leaders just now who are in charge of Russia who openly
talking, speaking to Russian people that this situation with
Russia is so bad because of America, because of America which
already destroyed former Soviet Union, destroy Yugoslavia,
occupied Kosovo, just now America which tried to destabilize
the region in northern Caucasus especially, to establish
control over this strategically important area, this America
which like to destroy mother Russia itself.
And in this situation, they built up Russian military
machine not to nowhere but especially against the United States
and American friends and allies worldwide. You know what's
going on just now in Chechnya. It's very small area. It's
actually--I don't know how to compare it, but maybe it's only
fifth spot of California State. But these people, Chechnyan
people who fighting for independence from Russia more than 200
years just now fighting against the same Russian domination
which was historically in this area. And Russian Government
using Chechnyan area, area of Chechnyans living like some kind
of test field for future war, for real war. Because they using
huge number of Russian military personnel for combat training.
They using new weapons system which are in stage of design
only. First time, if I understand rightly, it was first time in
history when Russian military few weeks ago used bombs against
Chechnyan militants.
And in this situation when Russian Government, which
actually just now are considering only one strategic partner in
the world, it's not America, but China, Russian Government,
which continues its military buildup and development of Russian
military machine, they do not change their mind. And they still
consider United States like main potential military adversity.
Mr. Burton. Let me interrupt you. I guess I didn't make my
point quite clear. Why should Americans be concerned about the
book and the statements that have been made that there are--
there's a strong possibility that there are sites across the
United States and North America where military equipment and
communications equipment, and telecommunications equipment
might be buried and also the possibility that there might be
some nuclear weapons buried? Why should Americans be concerned
about that? I mean, could you and the others that we've quoted
here today be incorrect?
Mr. Lunev. American people need to be concerned about this
location because this weapon system which storage in this
country could be used by Russian special operation forces
commanders against American people in time when Russian
Government will order them for action. This is very big danger.
Mr. Burton. I don't want to belabor the point, but there
will be people who will say this is all bologna, that it's not
factual even though several Russian leaders have said that
these things have occurred or could occur. How would you answer
them?
Mr. Lunev. I would like to answer to people who is really
concerned about national security of this country that location
of this weapon system of foreign region in the territory of
independent country like United States of America, it's
violation, violation of American rights, traditions and
sovereignty. And it's direct danger to the national security of
this country.
Mr. Burton. But you believe that that really occurs?
Mr. Lunev. I believe, yes.
Dr. Pry. Could I offer a short answer to that question,
sir, could I have the temerity?
Mr. Burton. Sure.
Dr. Pry. Caches have been found in Europe. That is a fact.
It is a fact. They have been found in Belgium and Switzerland.
So we know the caches are real. It would be--we are a Nation of
strategic optimists; but it's a real stretch, it seems to me,
to think that when their doctrine calls for putting these
caches in NATO and the United States, and then we find caches
in NATO, that we then conclude that well, they wouldn't have
done it in the United States.
I think the burden of proof at this point is on those who
want to argue that we don't have to worry about these caches to
answer that argument. Why should they be in NATO and not the
United States?
Mr. Burton. Thank you very much.
Mr. Scarborough.
Mr. Scarborough. I wanted to ask a question about the new
administration. You know, we've heard often that in the post-
cold war era how nuclear weapons were not controlled, how some
had been smuggled or lost or sold to rogue states. And I want
to ask you all obviously when we had the Yeltsin administration
many considered the administration to be weak, corrupt, and had
devolved power where somebody said Russian Mafia has as much
control as any other institutions there, let me ask you about
the new administration. Even though Putin is more nationalistic
and more militaristic and more hostile to the West, do you all
believe that there may be a silver lining in that he may gain
more control over nuclear weapons? Because obviously if on one
side we've been seeing military and political and economic
anarchy in Russia over the past 8 or 9 years, if he is a
stronger leader, is there a chance to believe that maybe some
of the nuclear proliferation, at least on the black market, may
be brought under control?
Because right now how many weapons--85 of these suitcases
can't even be accounted for. I know that's sort of throwing a
curve ball, but many Americans have said for some time that one
of the most dangerous things with the Russian Government is
that they don't have control over nuclear weapons because
they're so weak.
Any taker's on that?
Dr. Pry. I'll--go on.
Mr. Green. There's, I think, a widespread impression that
authoritarian or totalitarian governments are in control from
top to bottom. But experience shows that even a government that
can be very forceful and very brutal in keeping its population
down can suffer from massive corruption and turmoil. It's not
so much that it doesn't exist as that the press is unable to
report about it. There is no freedom to talk about it. I don't
think that the sort of opportunities for proliferation you've
been discussing would go away if Russia went back under an
authoritarian form of government.
Mr. Scarborough. How would you compare it, though? The lack
of control over nuclear weapons under the Soviet Union, the
80--listen, I'm not here preaching the joys of communism or
totalitarianism, I'm just asking a question. How would you
compare, though, the control of nuclear weapons by the Soviet
Union in the 1970's and 1980's compared to the 1990's?
Mr. Green. Well, in the Soviet period, control of nuclear
weapons was part of a very rigid control of all of society.
That has broken down. Even if it were reassembled, the horse is
already out of the door. We've had 10 to 15 years of a very
high level of disorder in Russia. And if there has been
significant leakage of nuclear terms or weapons out of Russia,
merely re-establishing authoritarian controls isn't going to
bring them back.
Mr. Scarborough. Colonel.
Mr. Lunev. I absolutely agree with Dr. Green that in time
of former Soviet Union existence it was very strong control
over nuclear materials and weapons systems, but after the USSR
disintegration, control became weaker; but nonproliferation
question is not connected with this protection of nuclear
materials and weapons because all proliferation and nuclear
technology is delivery to rogue countries made under direct
permission from Russian government of Boris Yeltsin.
But you ask very excellent question because what could be
happened in future in time when administration and Russian
Government actually was changed. And Mr. Putin just now Acting
President and leading candidate for Russian federation next
President, he doesn't have nothing, absolutely in his back,
exclude only war in Chechnya. And he depends from Russian
military much more than Yeltsin depend from his military
machine. At the same time, Mr. Putin depends from Russian
security services much more than Yeltsin who in his past had a
lot of problem with KGB and he hated KGB to the last days when
he was in power.
So if Mr. Putin who just now promising reforms to
reformers, pensions to pensioners, high salary to military
personnel, security services, and if this person who open,
actually open and just now carrying on war against his own
people in Northern Caucasus would become next Russian
President, it would be much more stronger person than
internationally and domestically. He is young. He's not drunk.
He is not out of his mind. And of course he would like maybe to
do something for Russian people, maybe to do something for
reforms which never occur in Russia. Maybe he will do something
for Russian people. But internationally he would be much more
militant and much more aggressive than his predecessor.
And in time, of course, when he would be in charge of
Russian military machine as a commander in chief of Russian
federation military, of course he will use all his power
including huge nuclear arsenal to press foreign countries,
especially for his own gains and benefits.
Mr. Scarborough. And I think, by the way, you've just
helped him define his campaign slogan: I'm not drunk. I'm not
crazy. As you said of his predecessor.
Dr. Pry, could you just conclude on this same question.
Because, again, it seems to me if he's going to have an iron
fist and if he's going to do a lot of things that Americans
might be repulsed by even if he's more militaristic and
aggressive against the West, is there a possibility that this
might bring some stability at home in Russia over control of
nuclear weapons that have not been controlled over the past 8
years?
Dr. Pry. Yeah. You see the question presumes that the
reason we have proliferation of missile technology and weapons
of mass destruction technology from Russia is because of a lack
of central control, and that this is being done by the Russian
Mafia criminal elements and independent enterprisers. This is
the majority view in the West. But I submit this is a case of
our strategic optimism. If you look at many of the specific
examples of proliferation that have occurred, they are a matter
of deliberate government policy. They are not being done by the
Mafia. It is not the Mafia that is building a nuclear reactor
for Iran. It is not the Mafia that helped them develop the----
Mr. Scarborough. If I can interrupt here. And I want you to
get into that briefly; but, again, there's a big difference
between purposely selling nuclear technology to Iran and other
rogue states and not knowing where 84 nuclear devices are. I
mean, I certainly understand he may want to sell to Syria, he
may want to sell to Iran, he may want to sell to other rogue
states. That's very different, though, than losing 84 nuclear
devices, is it not?
Dr. Pry. Sure. General Lebed could not account for the 84
nuclear devices. That does not mean that the GRU does not know
where they are.
Mr. Scarborough. Right.
Dr. Pry. That was part of Mr. Lunev's testimony that maybe
they're here and part of the government doesn't want to tell
another part of the government. But I guess here you could say,
well, if he has an iron hand, is more Stalin-like, maybe he
could get these guys to tell the General Lebeds where they are.
And that's possible. I don't deny that there could be some--I
think the benefits would be marginal in terms of the tradeoff,
in terms of getting control. Because frankly when I think--when
you get down to specifics about cases of proliferation and you
look at all the cases of proliferation, one is hard pressed to
actually come up with a hard example of where the Russian Mafia
really proliferated anything. Those accelerometers and
gyroscopes, over 100 of them, hard to believe that organized
crime could manage that, you know. It looks like this was in
collusion.
Also, organized crime and the government are often one in
the same. Defense Minister Grachev was a major boss of an
organized crime family in Russia according to research done by
many Russian journalists. I think the bottom line is you have a
more authoritarian or totalitarian government that is even more
hostile to the West than the past government was, it will
provide even more of an incentive for these guys to want to
strengthen our adversaries in the world by arming them with
weapons of mass destruction and highly effective conventional
weapons to cause as much trouble for the United States as they
can. That is going to by far outweigh the increased police
actions that you might get, you know, from having an
authoritarian government. I believe it will be a net loss for
us in security.
Mr. Burton. Mr. Lunev, did you want to respond to that?
Mr. Lunev. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Only few years
according to these devices, looks like yes. Because these
devices are designed for a special operation forces commanders
and actually time when design of this weapon system was in
place, it was only GRU which handle special operation forces
commanders which need to operate worldwide.
And, according General Lebed's statements that some of
these devices are not located in Russia, later he made one more
statement because there were a lot of questions, is it possible
that these devices could find way in the hands of international
terrorists or other countries or countries without nuclear
weapons. And General Lebed said openly that according checking
process he made trying to find these devices he found that
these nuclear weapons systems are in right hands. So GRU----
Mr. Scarborough. In right hands.
Mr. Lunev. In right hands, not in wrong hands.
Mr. Burton. If the gentleman will yield. What he was saying
then is that the government did have control of those some
place, but he was not telling where they were.
Mr. Lunev. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scarborough. Thanks.
Mr. Burton. Thank you, Mr. Scarborough.
Mr. Weldon.
Mr. Weldon. Mr. Lunev, I have known you for some time, but
I think for the purpose of the media here we should go through
exactly who you are and what you were doing. You are currently
in a witness protection program in this country administered by
two of our intelligence agencies; is that correct? The CIA and
the FBI.
Mr. Lunev. It's interagency.
Mr. Weldon. So Stanislav Lunev is not your correct name.
Mr. Lunev. It's my original name.
Mr. Weldon. Mr. Lunev, when you were active in the GRU,
which is the intelligence arm of the Soviet military, you were
stationed for a while in the Soviet Embassy in Washington; is
that correct?
Mr. Lunev. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weldon. When you were stationed at the Soviet Embassy
in Washington, was your cover that of being a TASS
correspondent?
Mr. Lunev. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weldon. And so people who came across you in Washington
really thought you were working for the Soviet media; is that
correct?
Mr. Lunev. Of course.
Mr. Weldon. But what were your real assignments? What kinds
of things were you expected to do while you were working there
supposedly as a TASS correspondent? What kinds of things did
the GRU expect you to accomplish?
Mr. Lunev. Let's say that the journalist cover is very good
for intelligence officers because the same targets to penetrate
through secrets to open secrets and publish something about
this. So it was very good for my intelligence job. And in time
of my operational business in Washington, DC, area, I was
assigned for special tasking to penetrate through American
national security system and recruit people with access to the
secrets of American national security.
Mr. Weldon. Were you also asked to locate sites where
caches of weapons could be deposited in our country?
Mr. Lunev. Yes, sir, but it was some kind of support job I
made for my field office additionally to my major targets. And
in time of this support job, I spend many, many hours, many
hundreds of hours run around big Washington, DC, area trying to
find places for--we named them dead drops. Dead drops. Dead
drops which could be used for storage of money, documents,
microfilms, weapons systems, different types of weapons
systems, and report about our dead drops proposal to Moscow.
Mr. Weldon. How many such locations do you think that you
uncovered while you were on station in Washington
approximately?
Mr. Lunev. It's very easy to say because I stay in
Washington, DC, about 3\1/2\ years. And every 6 months I need
to find one, two places for different size dead drops. To keep
in mind the GRU field office in Washington, DC, it's about 40
person. There's hundreds going every 6 months.
Mr. Weldon. So hundreds of sites were identified.
Mr. Lunev. Yes.
Mr. Weldon. Were there other GRU agents in other offices
throughout the United States that were doing the same thing?
Mr. Lunev. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weldon. So how many----
Mr. Lunev. And some of them much more were involved in this
kind of job because they didn't have so hard targets as I had.
Mr. Weldon. So how many sites do you think were identified
overall during the course of, say, a year nationwide in
America?
Mr. Lunev. Thousands.
Mr. Weldon. Thousands.
Mr. Lunev. Thousands. It's only in big Washington, DC,
operational area, in New York, San Francisco, where we had
field offices were located, but in every trip outside of this
area, you know it was 25-mile zone.
Mr. Weldon. Right. Right.
Mr. Lunev. Everybody was assigned especially to find some
places of dead drop and sent description of this location to
Moscow after return back to Washington.
Mr. Weldon. And what was your understanding of the kinds of
drops that would occur there? Was it just communications and
telemetry equipment, money and small arms, or was there the
possibility of weapons of mass destruction?
Mr. Lunev. Sir, from this business nobody from intelligence
offices in the field doesn't know how this place like they
found the dead drop would be used. And all the description is
going to Moscow. And Moscow headquarter deciding how to use
concrete dead drop position.
Mr. Weldon. Did you ever have any indication of the
possibility of a weapon of mass destruction being brought to
the United States?
Mr. Lunev. Sir, in time when I had my instructions before
operational tour to Washington, DC, like the same that was
before I fly to China, I had very clear instruction. These dead
drop positions need to be found for all types of weapons
including nuclear weapons.
Mr. Weldon. Mr. Lunev, how many sites do you think there
are today in the United States where caches of weapons and
military material are still buried? Just an approximate.
Mr. Lunev. I think hundreds.
Mr. Weldon. Hundreds.
Mr. Lunev. Hundreds, yes.
Mr. Weldon. Are you confident that even though Mitrokhin
didn't copy down every exact location, that in the KGB files
those sites are in fact documented down to the exact location?
Mr. Lunev. I think that much more real information could be
found in the GRU headquarter, not so much KGB. Because KGB
traditionally they were active in Europe. It's very close
countries. But GRU as a strategic intelligence agency was much
more active if the United States.
Mr. Weldon. Good point. I agree with you. I think you're
probably correct. It probably needs to be as to the GRU.
So therefore is it your assessment as someone who was a
senior expert and was involved in these kinds of activities
that there are people in America who are at risk today because
of the possibility of what happened in Switzerland happening
throughout the United States in perhaps public park lands or in
open space that may have been the site where these materials
were located?
Mr. Lunev. I hope that it's never happened, but I cannot
exclude.
Mr. Weldon. Do you think it's true that we have sites such
as Switzerland where there are booby-trapped devices that could
harm American people, do you think that in fact is a very real
possibility in America today?
Mr. Lunev. Yes, sir. And I need to tell a few words
additionally. Because please keep in mind that the United
States intelligence and counterintelligence services are best
in the world. And the people who planned the same operation in
Switzerland and the United States, they keep in mind difference
in intelligence and counterintelligence services. And, of
course, everything which was done in the United States was done
many, many, many times much more carefully and safety for its
participants than it was done in European countries.
Mr. Weldon. Thank you.
Mr. Burton. Mr. Campbell.
Mr. Campbell. Mr. Chairman, thank you.
Mr. Lunev, describe please for me the kind of boobytrap
that might be connected with one of these dead drops or weapons
caches or communications caches.
Mr. Lunev. What does this mean, ``boobytrap''?
Mr. Campbell. Boobytrap is a device that would explode if
somebody who happened upon this by accident or happened upon
this by counterintelligence without having information or key
or a key to defuse it.
Mr. Lunev. Yes, sir, I understand. I understand your
question. The devices which would explode this weapons system
if somebody from strangers will try to open it to approach,
usually use in combat area in time of warfare, but connected
with the same devices like portable technical nuclear briefcase
or containers with chemical and biological weapons using
different types of devices, so-called self-liquidation devices.
And if somebody would like to approach this device, it will be
self-liquidation, first of all. But I cannot exclude
possibility that for more than 100 percent guarantee second
level of security would be the same devices for the explosion.
Mr. Campbell. In the example given in the book to which
reference has been made from the Mitrokhin files, we have a
boobytrapped device in Switzerland which was used to protect
communications devices apparently. My question is whether this
would be typical of the kind of protection that you would have
placed around a communications cache, a communications dead
drop in the United States.
Mr. Lunev. Yes, sir, it's typical. It's typical and in the
traditions.
Mr. Campbell. And if you have an estimate, I would like to
know it whether this was true for all dead drops and locations
of this nature or some. And if only some, what was the
distinction.
Mr. Lunev. Thank you, sir. No. It's very big difference
because for dead drops, for communication with agents, for
exchange of microfilms, information, money, to provide them
communication devices, it's--I think it's only in few cases
they could be equipped by this special destruction devices. But
in general, when you have agent with elementary school
education to explain him how to switch off this explosion
device, it's impossible. But for dead drops which could be used
by special operation forces commanders, yes, it is necessary.
Mr. Campbell. And those would include dead drops that you
are aware of within the United States.
Mr. Lunev. This is dead drops for the future war. It means
places where weapons system could be storage, communication
devices not for peace time, not for spy games, but for war time
and all reserves which would be necessary to command this for
the war time.
Mr. Campbell. You mentioned San Francisco field office of
the GRU. Are you aware of any locations of devices,
communications, or weapons that would have been the
responsibility of GRU agents working out of the San Francisco
office?
Mr. Lunev. Sure. I didn't have time to tell you all story
about this. But it's not only GRU operational offices who are
working in this country under civilian cover or in military
uniform are involved in this business. Because they, yes, they
are responsible for finding dead drops and the operations
according dead drops. But please keep in mind that a lot of GRU
offices are coming here like businessmen, like students,
teachers, most popular computer specialists, and all other
cover they can use. And they will do one of the major part of
their job is to find these dead drop positions. Plus illegals
in this country, there is a lot of illegals, not only for GRU
but for KGB. And all of them are looking around especially to
fulfill their tasking.
And San Francisco is extremely important. San Francisco and
Los Angeles it's strategically important targets for the future
war operational use. And, of course, I am sure that they are in
lots of places where these weapons systems are located of
course not inside but somewhere around, especially to be
delivered in very short time to the place of the operational
use. So it's not only San Francisco, Los Angeles, Washington,
DC, New York City. It's in this country there are a lot of
targets for these weapons.
Mr. Campbell. I ask about San Francisco only because you
brought it up as a field office of the GRU.
Mr. Lunev. Yes. And it's very important strategically. You
know what Navy, Army, Air Force facilities you do have, and how
San Francisco military area is important for the future war
operations. It's extremely important.
Mr. Campbell. I'm tempted to ask one additional question if
I might, Mr. Chairman. Silicon Valley, would that have an equal
interest to your operations?
Mr. Lunev. Yes, sir. Because to believe that in this
country it's very difficult to find location of nuclear
weapons, American nuclear weapons or military units, no, it's
very clear from space satellites. But the major secrets of the
United States are in up-to-date technologies development, first
of all connected with military. And Silicon Valley is a
recognized leader in this technologies, research, development
and production. And of course Silicon Valley is one of the
targets for penetration by GRU; but it's not by nuclear
briefcases, it's by recruitment of people.
Mr. Campbell. Very well.
Mr. Chairman, I have one final question and that is to ask
Colonel Lunev why he defected.
Mr. Burton. Why did you defect?
Mr. Lunev. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Campbell, it's very long
story. But very briefly I can tell you if you have couple
minutes of course because I cannot do it in shorter period of
time.
For me, as a graduate of law school of Moscow Military
Political Academy, I had access to secret archives of Communist
party in time when I get this advanced military education. When
I saw papers and documents signed by Lenin, Stalin, and other
leaders of Soviet international communists, after I saw these
papers, communism ideology never play any role in my life. I
keep my membership in Communist party only like some kind of
ordinary or regular staff I need to have, but I do it for my
country, I believe in my country, not communist ideology.
And all my life I believe that Soviet propaganda which tell
me and other Soviet people that way of life in Soviet Union is
fair and equal for all people, I believe in this way of life
maybe because I didn't see any other. I believe in this when I
worked in Singapore, in China and Soviet Union, until I came to
the United States. When I came to this country, I found that
it's different story. Because, please, turn back the Soviet
Union 10 years ago what was it in America. Evil empire, leader
of international imperialism, country where only small number
of people are living very good, this is millionaires, and all
other population living very bad and working for these rich
people to become more and more rich.
When I came to this country, I found that's wrong. I found
that, yes, in this country there is limited number of very
wealthy or rich people, limited number of very poor people who
are living very bad. But between in this country there is huge,
huge middle class which lives in this country, I cannot say
very good, not bad. Not bad.
And when I found that, that it's absolutely different
society, different--the polar different types of living, of
course I reduce my hostile activity against this country
dramatically if not to zero and try to do minimum what I could
do against this country in my operational stay here.
And, of course, I didn't want to fight against America. And
I didn't want to damage America. And it's happen 1991, 1992,
after your society's integration, the society's integration, I
found that unfortunately information I receive from my sources
with risk of myself and people who believed me is going to
wrong hands. And I found that some of my information is going
through the hands of Russian, just now it's name of criminals
or people who are conducted with organized crime activity
against the United States.
It was some kind of last drop in my decision to cancel my
hostile activity against the United States. But last drop, real
last drop, it was in my conversations with my friends and
associates--maybe you remember the beginning of 1992,
wintertime, and American Air Force cargo plans deliver
humanitarian aid to Russian people. In time when America tried
to assist my own country and my own people, in time when
Russian Government didn't do nothing but requested new credits
and loans from the United States, I with my friends and
associates we discussed very actively problem what to do in
this country. Because America, if to believe Yeltsin, it was
not anymore enemy but became friend or partner.
And in this situation we need to cancel our hostile
activity against America. And if it's necessary to continue our
spy business, but by other ways like friendly countries, you
know what foreign intelligence services are working in this
country, but most of them are friendly intelligence services.
And when we requested Moscow what to do in this situation, we
received direct order from Russian President Boris Yeltsin to
activate our spy business against America and to make it more
dangerous for the United States than before. It was last drop.
After this I made my decision.
Mr. Campbell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Burton. Let me just ask two questions then I'll yield
to my colleagues again for a second round if they choose to ask
questions. No. 1, do you know anything about these nuclear
devices that we were talking about? Do you have any knowledge
of those nuclear devices?
Mr. Lunev. No, sir, because I was assigned to strategic
intelligence.
Mr. Burton. So you wouldn't know if it took more than one
person to detonate one of those.
Mr. Lunev. I know only one that special operation forces
commanders, they had special groups of people, specially
trained how to use these devices.
Mr. Burton. Can one person set the devices off?
Mr. Lunev. Maybe this is only one person in group who can
handle this problem.
Mr. Burton. So one person could detonate a device like
that.
Mr. Lunev. Yes.
Mr. Burton. OK. That's what I thought. The other thing is
in the event that it was boobytrapped if we had a nuclear
device like that here in the United States buried, in the event
that it was boobytrapped, do you know if the boobytrap went off
if the nuclear device also would be exploded?
Mr. Lunev. It's very difficult to expect that this nuclear
device would be destroyed by this explosion.
Mr. Burton. Would it explode?
Mr. Lunev. Yes. If it would be exploded, it would be a lot
of evidences that it was nuclear device. So it's much more easy
to have special self-liquidation device.
Mr. Burton. What I meant is let's say there's a boobytrap
on a site where they have a nuclear device. If the boobytrap
went off, would that also explode the nuclear device?
Mr. Lunev. Very good question, but I think it's for more
specialist than me in this area.
Mr. Burton. OK.
Mr. Lunev. But I can tell you that if somebody in his
design would like to destroy this device, he would like to make
it much more chemically than by regular explosions.
Mr. Burton. Thank you.
Mr. Weldon, do you have any more questions?
Mr. Weldon. Colonel Lunev, several decades ago there was
what we call a sleeper agent of the Soviet government who
turned himself into the Royal Canadian Mounted Police who was
living in Canada. And as a part of his turning himself in, he
said that he was--his job was to wait for a coded signal from
the GRU which he would then use to detonate a bomb that would
eliminate a main oil pumping station north of Edmonton and
destroy it.
Now, that individual was known; and in fact I have talked
to the people who interviewed him and I'm trying to get to him
now. Are the use of these so-called sleeper agents, were they
common among the GRU to have people prepositioned; and do you
still think that that type of a person could exist today in
both the United States and perhaps Canada?
Mr. Lunev. It sounds very familiar for me because it's
regular practice to use as you said sleeping agent, especially
for using of these devices in time of war after receiving
special authorization from radio or by other devices. So it's
very regular practice, sounds very typical for this. And just
now--it's just now it's very difficult to say how to use these
people now. But we name these people illegals or illegal
intelligence agents or officers. Illegal intelligence was not
canceled, is in place, and would be in place until the time
when country could be existing. So I think that this methods of
operational use of people would be in place for unlimited time.
Mr. Weldon. One final question, Mr. Lunev. I referred today
to a document from the Russian military publication Military
Thought. I believe it's called Voennaya. Is that correct?
Mr. Lunev. Yes.
Mr. Weldon. It says this has been published every year
since June 1918. Are you familiar with this document?
Mr. Lunev. No, sir.
Mr. Weldon. The internal Russian Military Thought?
Mr. Lunev. No, sir.
Mr. Weldon. In the document in July 1995 I referred to the
article that talks about the employment of special task forces.
And I referred to the one sentence that says special task
forces can be used not only in war but also in peacetime during
a period of threat.
Do you believe that there is the possibility that there are
some in Russia today that would want to use these kinds of
weapons and these kind of special forces in peacetime as well
as in time of perhaps conflict if they believed that perhaps a
war was about to begin?
Mr. Lunev. Sir, in military plans everything is possible.
And it could be look like that just now it's peacetime, but for
people who are in decisionmaking process it looks like
preliminary time for the future war. So we cannot operate by
the same time which these people. And yes, it's possible for
using of this weapons system during so-called peacetime for
different purposes, but decision could be made by supreme
commander in chief only.
Mr. Weldon. One final if you don't mind, Mr. Chairman.
Colonel Lunev, the $64,000 question today and has been for the
past 3 months, the major question is why wouldn't our
administration ask the Russians to give us the exact locations
of these sites? Now, I've given my own speculation. What's your
speculation as a former GRU official now living in the United
States? We've had two agencies tell us that we haven't asked
the question. Why in the world wouldn't our administration ask
that question of the Russians to tell us where those sites are?
Mr. Lunev. Sir, why are you asking me about this?
Mr. Weldon. Because I had to give my own speculation and I
gave that earlier today. I think it's a part of our policy of
we didn't want to embarrass Yeltsin in 1992 and 1993 when we
found out about the Mitrokhin files so we didn't want to ask
the question. So now we're between a rock and a hard place
because if we ask the question now people are going to
criticize the administration for waiting 8 years or 7 years to
ask it. I'm just asking you to speculate. What do you think
would be the reason?
Mr. Lunev. Sir, I can give you my thoughts very briefly
because you know that in this country as I already said you
have very good and professional intelligence and
counterintelligence. And I am sure that these people are--I
very highly respect these people. By the way you have some of
them behind me now. I saw them in Washington. I am sure that
they inform politicians about what's really going on, what
could be happening with these devices. But why politicians
didn't do it, it's not question for me. How to do it, I think
it's very easy. You know how many billions of dollars America
already sent to Russian Government and this money disappeared.
Russian people didn't get one penny from this billions and
billions of dollars.
Mr. Weldon. Exactly.
Mr. Lunev. Why not to ask before sending this money for
this information. It's very easy to say. Russian Government
existing on money from America. Why not to ask for favor.
Mr. Weldon. I agree with you absolutely 1,000 percent.
That's the question for the administration. Why haven't they
asked.
Mr. Burton. I think that's a good question to end this part
of the hearing on. Before we dismiss our panel, I want to thank
very much the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation
Authority for allowing us to use this facility. I also want to
thank all of the MTA staff that's worked so hard and so closely
with my staff to make sure this hearing was possible.
I also want to thank the panel. You've been very, very
informative to us. We really appreciate it. We appreciate your
coming all the way to Los Angeles. And hopefully we'll be able
to pick your brains in the future for more information as this
process goes forward.
And, Mr. Lunev, thank you for helping America by giving us
this information. Thank you very much.
Mr. Lunev. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Burton. We're going to let you leave first. So we'll
let you put your sack over your head.
Mr. Lunev. May I say a few words only? Few words.
Mr. Burton. Yeah, sure.
Mr. Lunev. Because just now I told you that I am working
for an information company. And I found that in my
conversations with my readers, with listeners that just now
America, situation is in America is not bad, not bad. Economy
is growing. People are living not bad. And I think that just
now maybe it's very good time to think about American national
security a little bit more than usual. Because maybe later it
could be too late.
And thank you for you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for you,
ladies and gentlemen, for inviting us, for listening to us. And
I am really respect what are you doing for this country.
Mr. Burton. Thank you very much. We'll meet you outside. I
would like to shake your hand.
Would you escort him out.
And the other panelists, thank you very much.
We will go into executive session, the Members of Congress
with the intelligence agencies. It's for the classified
briefing. And we'll do that in about 10 minutes in the
adjoining room.
Thank you all very much. And thanks to the media for being
here. We appreciate your attendance.
[Whereupon, at 1:28 p.m., the committee was recessed.]
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